17:28fdobridge: <gouz> draw-indirect instance now work!
17:29fdobridge: <gouz> draw-indirect instanced\ now work! (edited)
17:29fdobridge: <gouz> draw-indirect instanced now work! (edited)
17:37RSpliet: as good an idea as it may seem, this matrix bridge is at the same time starting to look like an attempt at embrace, extend, extinguish on IRC
17:37fdobridge: <jekstrand> Awesome!
17:38fdobridge: <gouz> 😋
17:38fdobridge: <gouz> now some more testing for draw indirects
17:49fdobridge: <jekstrand> Left you a comment
18:01fdobridge: <gouz> Thanks @jekstrand i will fix this
18:04fdobridge: <jekstrand> There's a couple other places where we do that. Maybe we should add an `nvk_root_descriptor_offset()` helper macro.
18:09karolherbst: RSpliet: see, already getting ignored :P
18:17RSpliet: karolherbst :-P Also not sure which bridge this is tbh. Comparing it with the matrix bridge in dri-devel, this looks different. Could be bridging something else instead... MS Teams? :>
18:18alyssa: jekstrand: See now I want MME Doom
18:18RSpliet: But it's ok. I don't have a lot of skin in the game, being on the sidelines of OSS driver dev. Just wanted to have said it once, I'd find it a shame if stuff slowly starts gravitating towards a non-open standard :-)
18:19karolherbst: RSpliet: if you'd know....
18:23alyssa: RSpliet: +1
18:23alyssa: (she says from both sides of the bridge)
18:25alyssa: It's pretty clear that IRC is fading, the question is what comes next... and yeah, I hope we have a FOSS answer for that.
18:26alyssa: There are answers -- Matrix, Rocket.chat, Mattermost -- but so far no singular good answer.
18:28i509VCB: A lot of irc servers aren't configured very well either. I have to use the matrix bridge right now to prevent the server from announcing my actual ip. And bouncers are just annoying.
18:30karolherbst: yeah.. all the FOSS alternatives I looked into it are just broken one way or another
18:30karolherbst: it's very sad
18:30karolherbst: either their permission system is utter trash
18:30karolherbst: they don't support gitlab SSO out of the box
18:30karolherbst: they UI are trash
18:30karolherbst: they don't allow what we need...
18:30karolherbst: it's frustrating
18:30karolherbst: there is a good solution covering almost everything and those are not FOSS
18:31i509VCB: The only solutions I see are the compromise principles or features
18:31alyssa: karolherbst: none of the nonfree ones do gitlab SSO out of the box either ...
18:31alyssa: so that's a moot point
18:32RSpliet: I don't have a particularly strong opinion. In general by the way
18:32karolherbst: that's like the only drawback and painful
18:32alyssa: RSpliet: I do :(
18:32alyssa: (she says from both sides of the bridge)
18:32RSpliet: I can see IRCs shortcomings, but I also don't care about them. It gets the messages across
18:32karolherbst: yeah.. it needs to be foss
18:32karolherbst: but atm the strongest candidate would be zulip
18:32alyssa: is that the one with the weird threading?
18:32i509VCB: Foss is a hard requirement
18:32RSpliet: Bouncers annoying, meh, got a home server. Pretty sure one could be set up on FDO infra if need be
18:32karolherbst: it actually has a useful permission system
18:32i509VCB: We have to compromise the UI/UX somewhere
18:33karolherbst: and they host FOSS projects for free
18:33karolherbst: with all the features
18:33karolherbst: and unlimited
18:33karolherbst: just have to ask about custom gitlab SSO
18:34i509VCB: With zulip nouveau/asahi/etc can have their own streams
18:34i509VCB: A monolithic fdo zulip instance is possible
18:34karolherbst: that's the strongest point for zulip
18:34karolherbst: and you can have different permissions per stream/channel/whatever
18:34karolherbst: so people can organize their own sub project
18:36alyssa: which matches our current IRC model nicely
18:36alyssa: although honestly if we were doing IRC for fd.o today I'd almost wish we had a dedicated irc.freedesktop.org server
18:38karolherbst: but hosting...
18:38karolherbst: apparently zulip is also more FOSS than the others, so we won't have that kind of discussion either
18:39karolherbst: I'll probably contact their sales to upgrade the test freedesktop server I've setup or something... maybe I need an official email for that (lol)
18:39karolherbst: I have IRC enough to actually spend time on this
18:40i509VCB: I'm not sure if the gitlab sso there is for gitlab.com or will work on any self hosted gitlab
18:44karolherbst: that's for gitlab.com
18:44karolherbst: but it also has SAML and OpenID connect
19:23mntirc: i'm the designer of the open hardware mnt reform laptop and looking for some advice; i'm thinking to make a version based around nvidia xavier nx (or later orin) and mainline linux, mesa. as nouveau devs would you say this is a good idea or nah? i'm also considering rk3588(s) which is (somewhat?) supported by panfrost if i'm not mistaken
19:24mntirc: currently the soc is imx8mq which has a vivante gpu (gc7000). it's a pretty stable platform but limited by the a53 and gles 2.
19:24karolherbst: mntirc: nvidia stopped shipping firmware for tegra devices, and xavier is not supported
19:24mntirc: karolherbst: that sounds like it's a dead end?
19:25karolherbst: yeah, pretty much. Unless you can convince Nvidia to care (I tried in my position as a Red Hat developer, and that didn't work)
19:25mntirc: ugh, that's disappointing
19:25mntirc: did they ship the fw before as a separate download?
19:25karolherbst: if you want to use panfrost, _maybe_ talking to daniels on #panfrost is a good plan forward
19:25karolherbst: no, it's all in linux-firmware
19:26mntirc: i wonder why they put in the effort to support the platform on mainline linux at all then
19:26karolherbst: but "gp10b" is the last they shipped for tegras
19:26karolherbst: which is the generation before xavier afaik
19:26mntirc: yeah it should be gv11b
19:26karolherbst: mntirc: there was this deal with google and the pixel.... something
19:27karolherbst: they tried using nouveau, nvidia didn't care enough to make that a success and...
19:28HdkR: You /really/ wouldn't want Xavier anyway :P
19:28karolherbst: orin only supports one display :P
19:28mntirc: HdkR: why is that?
19:28HdkR: Closed source firmware blobs for the CPU
19:28HdkR: Wacky CPU is wacky
19:29HdkR: Also both Xavier and Orin are like 50-60w TDP parts, they're HUUge
19:29mntirc: fwiw i have a NX sample and i was surprised about the amount of chaos around booting it
19:29karolherbst: mntirc: there is UEFI firmware btw
19:29mntirc: ah, i have the jetson xavier nx, it can run on 10w
19:29mntirc: yes, i installed the UEFI one yesterday
19:29karolherbst: ahh, cool
19:29mntirc: it was able to boot a debian installer iso
19:29karolherbst: I have it on my jetson nano :3
19:29HdkR: Yea, it scales down a bit at least
19:30mntirc: so, there's a framebuffer and all... and i thought the next step could be to convince nouveau to work with the gpu
19:30karolherbst: yeah.. no dice
19:30HdkR: * Sad Trombone Music *
19:30mntirc: i found some irc logs from hier from tagr who seemed to have made some initial work
19:30karolherbst: yeah, so in theory it should all work
19:30karolherbst: just missing the firmware
19:31karolherbst: I asked nvidia, and they said they don't care
19:31mntirc: ok, and i couldn't extract that from the binary blob driver stuff?
19:31mntirc: (i trust your judgement, just curious about the technical details)
19:32karolherbst: but I wasn't much caring either, just said if it's not much work for them to release that firmware they should figure out if they could, but sadly apparently it's a lot of work, so without anybody actually wanting that it was kind of in this limbo of not caring and not wanting to put in the effort
19:33mntirc: aha, so it's more like a legal hurdle, because extracting it would be some copyright problem, or... is it just that noone was eager enough to go down that path?
19:33karolherbst: though I'd probably would have supported it, but nouveau doesn't have enough developers to actually support it well anyway :'(
19:33karolherbst: mhh.. soo the firmware we got from nvidia is different than what they use
19:33karolherbst: so even if there wouldn't be any legal issues in terms of distribution, we'd have to figure out how to use that firmware
19:34karolherbst: and it's this signed firmware mess with some super secure bootloader
19:34mntirc: so the fw that might be in a blob somewhere is not like older tegra fw?
19:34karolherbst: and if it fails to boot the only thing we know is: it didn't boot
19:34karolherbst: yeah.. it's quite close to their discrete GPU model
19:34karolherbst: but it's a pita to rely on that
19:34karolherbst: and we don't have the people to make it run well in the short term
19:35HdkR: mntirc: I'm curious how you feel about Snapdragon as a SoC choice :)
19:35mntirc: HdkR: bad because afaik there is no documentation for those
19:35karolherbst: anyway.. you probably want to talk to daniels if you have specific SoCs in mind
19:36karolherbst: daniels will be able to help you.. maybe.. depending on the hardware
19:36mntirc: karolherbst: ok, thanks a ton for your perspective
19:36mntirc: karolherbst: i kinda know daniels, so that sounds goot
19:36mntirc: (what's with the typos today)
19:37mntirc: HdkR: i was surprised one can just download the reference manual for xavier
19:37mntirc: 8000+ pages
19:38mntirc: so, that was a good thing at least. similar to the nxp imx family we use
19:38HdkR: Whoa, didn't know that was available
19:38fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> For Xavier the firmware is shipped in a separate download
19:39fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> But is available
19:39karolherbst: ahh cool
19:39fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> The NVIDIA L4T kernel also has zero binary only modules
19:39fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> (nvgpu being GPLv2)
19:39karolherbst: maybe one could make it work with that
19:39karolherbst: but I don't have the hardware anyway
19:40karolherbst: and I have way too many things to work on already :'(
19:41mntirc: karolherbst: i can send you the hardware if you want to play with it
19:41fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Oh yeah… I wonder for me if the right route is making nouveau be able to use the nvgpu KMD
19:41mntirc: it's no use for me without nouveau anyway
19:41karolherbst: I can also buy it, it's not the problem. The proble is time and random other things :(
19:42mntirc: ok i see ^^
19:44fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> I have Xavier around but
19:44fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Not remotely enough time
19:45fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Also remember one thing: Jetson Nano can be booted around entirely blob less. This doesn’t apply to Xavier
19:45mntirc: oh, i didn't know that
19:45fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> In fact Xavier has a mandatory multimeg CPU microcode to load 😛
19:45mntirc: the nano gpu is also not supported by nouveau, right?
19:45karolherbst: yeah I don't have the time to fight this annoying security thing
19:46karolherbst: it actually is
19:46mntirc: it is?
19:46karolherbst: it's just slow and weak hardware
19:46fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> It’s a Transmeta-style machine with a translator from arm to native ISA
19:46mntirc: ah yeah
19:46karolherbst: and quite dated
19:46fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> So you need to bundle and have that JIT around
19:46mntirc: do you get GL 4.x on it?
19:46mntirc: or vulkan?
19:46fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Or you won’t exactly get very far
19:46karolherbst: atm just GL
19:46fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> GL4.5 works
19:46karolherbst: but vulkan is in the making
19:47karolherbst: the GL driver isn't great though
19:47mntirc: fdobridge: seriously @ transmeta? lol
19:47fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Note that it would be by far the strongest GPU of any mnt reform
19:47mntirc: but the orin (?) will have cortex-a78 again
19:47karolherbst: and that clocking mess is a mess
19:47fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Yes. Xavier is the swan song of Transmeta-style designs
19:48fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> The Estes core that will succeed Carmel is no longer using a dynamic code optimisation approach
19:48mntirc: i see
19:49fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Orin also needs blobs to boot, MB1, the first stage loaded from SPI is signed and encrypted
19:50fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> But for Xavier onwards you have something cool: UEFI out of the box with edk2
19:51mntirc: yep, i was surprised that it works
19:51mntirc: and the edk2 fork is open source also
19:51fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> The last BSP release for Jetson Nano came with U-Boot with the UEFI compat module on
19:52fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> So that you are supposed to be able to use regular Fedora install media now without tricks
19:52mntirc: i was able to boot stock debian and fedora install isos
19:52mntirc: so mainline kernel def. works
19:53fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> For Xavier and Orin ACPI is a work in progress too
19:53fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> You won’t be stuck with FDT in the long run
19:53mntirc: well, it's all no use if there are no gpu drivers to go with mainline
19:54fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> The plan so far is to split the nvgpu kernel module and make it available as DKMS
19:54fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> As far as I understood
19:58fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> If you want something with relatively complete mainline support - Jetson Nano/TX1 is where you might want to stop
19:59mhenning: hmm. I wonder if it's possible to use the out of tree l4t driver with something like https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/nouveau/mesa/-/merge_requests/65
19:59fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Tegra X1 is one of the few platforms with OSS DRAM training code available (was reverse engineeeed)
19:59fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Yes. The L4T driver set is fully OSS. It’d just take quite a bit of work…
20:00mntirc: butterflies: oh, hadn't heard that! so the tx1 is supported by nouveau as well?
20:01fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Yes TX1 is supported by nouveau. Such a config did ship in production on the Pixel C
20:03mntirc: i see. that is quite interesting, thanks! i also didn't realize it was a 8 core, 2 ghz cpu
20:03fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Quad
20:03fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Forget the A53 core complex on the Jetson Nano
20:03fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> A53 core complex never shipped, it’s there on silicon tho
20:04fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Basically, the 4 little cores are always off.
20:04fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Under any os
20:04fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Rumour mill says that it’s because of a cache coherency erratum
20:05fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Nothing prevents manually enabling them tho - but NVIDIA never did it for a reason
20:09fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Jetson Nano has the Switch SoC with half the GPU fused off - but running at significantly higher clocks
20:10fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> It also has a relatively good memory subsystem - faster than RPi4 in MT
20:10fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> (On the cpu side, GPU is not even a contest)
20:15fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> If you are happy with blobs you might want to go Orin Nano
20:15fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> But know that’s certainly not a blob less system 😛
20:15mntirc: i'm ok with boot blobs but not with blob drivers running on top of the OS
20:16fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Yeah for all Tegras no binary Linux kernel modules around
20:16fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> So you don’t have that concern at least
20:16mntirc: ok, so this i probably didn't get. the l4t GPU driver for nx is _not_ closed source?
20:16mntirc: xavier nx i mean
20:17fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Kernel mode part is OSS. User mode is the good old proprietary nvidia driver stack
20:17fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> But that can be potentially replaced with Mesa
20:17mntirc: ah, so that is also quite unacceptable :D
20:17mntirc: yeah, but it sounds like that's not gonna happen
20:17fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> I have a Xavier around so maybe I should take a shot…
20:19mntirc: well, that would be amazing.
20:19fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> (I’m a CUDA user so I rely on the nvidia KMD anyway… but indeed getting Mesa to work with that KMD would be nice)
20:20mntirc: i have the xavier nx so i can test things, and i can also contribute code, but only in 2.5 weeks after a short vacation
20:21fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Hah - meanwhile currently a bit (too) busy since I’m moving to Berlin
20:21mntirc: oh, i am based in berlin
20:21fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> nice. finding good housing there is a bit of a mess tho
20:22mntirc: it is very hard currently yes :/
20:22mntirc: did you find something?
20:22fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Still stuck. A lot of the pricing is nuts
20:22mntirc: yes, i live here since 2004 but i had to move ~2 years ago and now pay 1050 eur for like 37sqm
20:23mntirc: anyway, i guess this is going kind of off topic for the channel... if you would like to stay in touch and discuss this and other stuff, my email is firstname.lastname@example.org
20:25fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> true… so far did you just use an unmodified Jetson BSP on your boards?
20:25mntirc: yes, it came with an old one with cboot (?) and i reflashed it to the latest one that turned it into UEFI
20:26fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> CBoot is NVIDIA’s fork of LK
20:26fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> comes from the Android world
20:26fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> Jetson got transitioned to UEFI in 2022. Will make a lot of things nicer in the future, including stable bindings for nouveau
20:27mntirc: ok, so i will not abandon the project yet but put it in research mode for a while longer
20:44karolherbst: yeah.. uefi is great
20:46hell__: great pain in the rear
20:47fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> UEFI is so much nicer for the ecosystem than the alternatives - allows to share install media between distros
20:47karolherbst: no, it's literally great, stop arguing about it
20:47karolherbst: UEFI is super cool
20:47karolherbst: I have my ventoy USB driver with tons of random isos and I can just boot and install stuff anywhere
20:49hell__: ← coreboot dev
20:49karolherbst: as long as coreboot implements UEFI all is well
20:49hell__: you can use edk2 as payload, then you can boot things using UEFI
20:50karolherbst: finally sanity
20:50hell__:had to dig into edk2 code today to figure out why some feature for $CUSTOMER was not working
20:51karolherbst: I also kind of like being able to just dig into ACPI firmware and figure out what OEMs are terrible at
20:51fdobridge: <🌺 ¿butterflies? 🌸> I don’t care if you use EDK2 or u-boot UEFI or whatever as long as what is provided to the OS (bootloader) is UEFI
23:54mhenning: mntirc: I'd be willing to poke at orin or xavier a bit if you want to give me ssh access
23:56mntirc: mhenning: cool, i can set it up on monday. should i reach you here?
23:57mhenning: mntirc: You can reach me here if I'm on the channel, or email at mhenning at darkrefraction dot com if I'm not
23:58mntirc: great, will do! thanks!
23:58mhenning: sure. no promises though :)