18:28 mattst88: could someone give me a quick summary of when firmware is needed by nouveau?
18:29 TimurTabi: That's an open-ended question
18:29 TimurTabi: I mean, if the hardware needs firmware in order to function, that's when Nouveau needs it.
18:30 mattst88: yes. I guess I'm specifically interested in knowing when is non-redistributable firmware needed
18:30 TimurTabi: How can an open-source driver need non-redistributable firmware?
18:32 mattst88: ping: imirkin, karolherbst
18:33 mattst88: TimurTabi: this is the case with e.g. the b43 wireless driver. the necessary firmware has to be extracted from the windows driver blob
18:34 TimurTabi: Ah
19:22 ajax: if i wanted to learn about engine resets and why they don't work, where would i start?
19:59 karolherbst: mattst88: starting with second gen maxwell for hw acceleration
20:00 karolherbst: and power management
20:00 karolherbst: ajax: ask skeggsb_ :D
20:00 mattst88: karolherbst: okay, thanks. and that applies to basically everything since then too, right?
20:00 karolherbst: recovery mostly works, just sometimes it breaks for whatever reason
20:00 karolherbst: mattst88: yes
20:01 karolherbst: before that we required it for accelerated video decoding, but that's not a hard requierement, we just never wrote our own firmware
20:01 karolherbst: for that we have a script to extract those, the above mentioned firmware files are distributeable though
20:01 mattst88: karolherbst: I remember Andy responding in the Q-n-A after a nouveau talk (in... Helsinki?) that it was a struggle to get firmware released but that they were trying, etc
20:01 karolherbst: unless.. they were never published by nvidia
20:01 karolherbst: mattst88: it's better
20:02 karolherbst: we are working with Nvidia together on this
20:02 karolherbst: (we as in Red Hat)
20:02 mattst88: ah, great
20:02 karolherbst: still painful :D
20:02 mattst88: no doubt :)
20:03 karolherbst: the final go is day 0/1 release of the firmware.. the last time it took... 1-2 years?
20:03 mattst88: that would be nice
20:03 karolherbst: yeah.. let's see how it goes
20:03 mattst88: any clarity on why they can't release the existing firmware blobs as they are?
20:03 karolherbst: no idea...
20:03 mattst88: some dependence between the firmware and the proprietary drivers?
20:03 karolherbst: well
20:04 karolherbst: there is an interface
20:04 karolherbst: but they could just document it
20:04 mattst88: yeah
20:04 karolherbst: the firmware we get from nvidia are using the same interfaces though
20:04 karolherbst: they are just cut down and contain less features afaik
20:04 mattst88: ah, so they're actually going to produce/release firmwares specifically for use with nouveau?
20:05 karolherbst: I think so...
20:05 mattst88: interesting
20:06 karolherbst: I mean.. I attend the meetings with Nvidia where we discuss this, I am just not 100% sure with everything here :D though I am fairly sure
20:16 mattst88: makes sense
23:41 imirkin: mattst88: did you get a satisfactory answer?
23:42 mattst88: imirkin: yeah, I think so. sounds like stuff is in progress and might be better in the future, and it's Maxwell Gen2 and everything newer that requires unredistributable firmware for acceleration and power management
23:42 imirkin: non-redistributable firmware is needed in practice by nouveau only for video-decoding acceleration
23:42 imirkin: the firmware for maxwell gen2+ is redistributable (in fact, it's in linux-firmware)
23:42 karolherbst: well, only after nvidia publishes it
23:42 imirkin: yes.
23:43 karolherbst: which.. takes some time usually
23:43 karolherbst: still nothing for ampere :(
23:43 imirkin: this firmware differs from the firmware that is shipped with their blob drivers
23:43 imirkin: in that it's highly neutered
23:43 imirkin: but it's redistributable :)
23:44 karolherbst: Sometimes I think we really should just rewrite our entire wiki and start from scratch and explain those bits there as well :D
23:44 imirkin: (video decoding accel = vdpau/va-api btw)
23:44 imirkin: karolherbst: definitely
23:44 karolherbst: I think I will start deleting nonsense pages this weekend or so
23:44 karolherbst: check what's like never accessed and just kill it
23:44 imirkin: karolherbst: yeah. i keep meaning to delete it all
23:44 imirkin: but i never quite get around to it
23:45 karolherbst: well.. I do have the data from google
23:45 imirkin: i get so tired
23:45 imirkin: no energy for anything =/
23:45 karolherbst: yeah.. understandable
23:45 imirkin: i guess that happens when you start pushing 40 =/
23:45 karolherbst: well, that's not the only reason that stuff happens
23:46 karolherbst: the entire pandemic is also just annoying
23:46 imirkin: yeah, should stop that thing. it's not working out.
23:46 imirkin: we tried it, didn't like it.
23:46 ccr: :)
23:46 karolherbst: well
23:46 karolherbst: we are close at the end though
23:47 karolherbst: need to approve vaccination for children and then next year for everybody not vaccinated... well.... hope for the best I guess?
23:47 imirkin: sounds like a plan!
23:47 karolherbst: yep
23:47 karolherbst: phase 3 studies are already finished for children so.. not that far away actually
23:47 imirkin: 5+ afaik
23:48 karolherbst: right.. phase 2 for younger
23:48 karolherbst: anyway.. I kind of expect that end of this year or starting next year we won't see many restrictions anymore, unless you live in a state where people don't vaccinate and your hospitals are filling up again...
23:48 karolherbst: natural selection as its best or something, I don't know
23:49 karolherbst: anyway, point is, next year it's probably over
23:51 ccr: I wouldn't hold my breath yet, but we'll see.
23:51 karolherbst: I am quite sure that nobody will accept that anymore once we see that winter is mostly harmless now
23:52 karolherbst: well.. depending on where you live of course
23:52 HdkR: Do latest GPUs still require signed firmware for video decoding as well?
23:53 karolherbst: I think they always did
23:53 karolherbst: pre maxwell v2 the security is just broken or something
23:53 HdkR: Last time I asked someone about that I had a very confused response thinking that they were already under a redistributable license
23:53 karolherbst: wellllll
23:53 karolherbst: I think for tegra there are
23:53 karolherbst: &they
23:53 HdkR: pfft
23:54 HdkR: For all the people doing video decode on Xavier :P
23:54 karolherbst: at least tagr told me that the code for enabling it is almost finished
23:54 karolherbst: the open source one
23:54 karolherbst: so.. will be interesting
23:54 HdkR: Very interesting
23:54 karolherbst: no clue what the situation is on the desktop chips
23:55 karolherbst: a difficult question to answer is, if extracting firmwares falls under the "repackaging" clause
23:55 karolherbst: *files
23:55 karolherbst: if you are creative enough...
23:56 HdkR: For desktop I'm going to guess it is also still a mess
23:56 karolherbst: I mean.. what's the difference of extracting *.so files from an archive and extracting the firmware files from it :p
23:56 karolherbst: *between
23:56 HdkR: Data signing I guess
23:56 karolherbst: what signing?
23:57 karolherbst: and why is that relevant
23:57 karolherbst: we just extract a blob of data
23:57 karolherbst: and push it into /lib/firmware/ and nouveau picks it up and loads it
23:57 karolherbst: sooo...
23:57 HdkR: firmwares are signed, so files aren't, wan wan goes the code lawyers? :)
23:57 ccr: mmm.. forbidden blob of bytes.
23:57 karolherbst: again.. what "signing"? I am not aware of any signing. Those are just bytes of data
23:57 karolherbst: :D
23:57 HdkR: hah
23:58 karolherbst: so.. what difference does it make if ld loads a *.so file to execute code and mesa loading a blob we push to the GPU directly :D
23:58 karolherbst: well.. there are differences, but I guess none lawyers care about
23:59 karolherbst: the question is just, if we extract bytes of data from files within that archive.. is that relevant?
23:59 karolherbst: we could add an option to ... tar saying --extract-nv-fw-files :D