04:22ciscon: mrnuke: outlook not so good
08:00ccr:shakes the magic GPU 8-ball
09:12karolherbst: let's see how much I broke in my latest rework...
12:07karolherbst: imirkin: I think I will put all MT fixes into one MR, because then I can drop CC: stable and if a distribution wants to backport, they are free to do so as everything is included
14:10mrnuke: ciscon: I realized that last night. The integrated intel GPU is about 5 to 7 times faster than nouveau.
14:11mrnuke: Which is really a statement about how persistent nouveau devs are to get things rolling, and how shitty nvidia's attitude is
14:50thaytan: mrnuke, I'd guess a big chunk of that will be about GPU clock speed limitations under nouveau
15:07karolherbst: [110751/110751] Pass: 101922 Fail: 684 Skip: 8003 ExpectedFail: 0 UnexpectedPass: 0 Crash: 69 Timeout: 24 Missing: 0 Flake: 49 Duration: 5:43:30 Remaining: 0 ehhh..
15:17Santurysim: Fail count decreases...
15:26mrnuke: thaytan: Would it be better to say "a big chunk of that will be about GPU clock speed limitations imposed by nvidia" ? ;)
15:27mrnuke: I think it helps to phrase negative things about nouveau in terms of nvidia's decisions rather than against the nouveau project
15:43RSpliet: mrnuke: that certainly puts some serious limitations on the game. However, even on Kepler, where we have the capabilty of reaching full clock speeds for most boards, nouveau's perf is still pitiful compared to the blob
15:43RSpliet: There's also just a lack of personpower
15:49imirkin: RSpliet: pitiful, but in the same order of magnitude.
15:56mrnuke: RSpliet: What's the problem with the clocks? Is it along the lines of "we don't know which registers to write", or more similar to "we write the correct values, but the hardware refuses to change clocks" ?
15:57RSpliet: mrnuke: it's "we must write them through the firmware that NVIDIA isn't providing"
15:57mrnuke: RSpliet: What prevents extracting said firmware from the blobby blobs?
15:57RSpliet: ICM "any privileged firmware on the GPU must be signed by NVIDIA to execute"
15:59RSpliet: Ehh... they're like really hard to find. Think GZIPed then have their header thrown out kind of hard. There's not even a signature to look for. And if someone manages to find them, they can't be redistributed, so apart from a handful of geeky geeks it won't benefit very many people at all
16:00RSpliet: Oh yeah, and the standard approach of VBIOS fuzzing also doesn't work thanks to the same signing requirement, so there's also considerable difficulty in finding out exactly what to write
16:00RSpliet: it's not exactly low-hanging fruit
16:00imirkin: it's probably the lowest-hanging fruit
16:00imirkin: but it's still pretty high up
16:00imirkin: we've been picking at the tree for quite a while.
16:01RSpliet: is it though? I mean, sure, safe MT or a Vulkan driver are substantial pieces of work, but the pieces of the puzzle are understood by people at least?
16:02imirkin: i guess the height of fruit is debatable.
16:02mrnuke: speaking of "can't be redistributed", are we sure that it woudln't qualify under either fair use or the Fogerty factors ?
16:02imirkin: vk requires a major uapi redesign
16:03imirkin: mrnuke: when nvidia sues you, let me know how it pans out.
16:03mrnuke: imirkin: have they sued anyone?
16:04imirkin: mrnuke: wanna go first? :)
16:04imirkin: they have some pretty explicit terms when downloading their blob
16:04imirkin: whether those stand up in court or not, no clue
16:04imirkin: i'm not interested in finding out.
16:04mrnuke: imirkin: Also, if you look at the last decades of copyright, With Kirtsaeng v Wiley & sons, the two times Lexmark lost in the Supreme Court, and most recently, Google v Oracle, I doubt nvidia would stand much of a chance
16:04RSpliet: imirkin: fair, I more or less aimed to give an indication on the other big chunks of work that "the devs" IIRC are working on, with like milestones that make you feel fuzzy rather than anxious.
16:05imirkin: mrnuke: my personal wealth is not such that i can take a case all the way to supreme court, sadly.
16:05RSpliet: mrnuke: last time I checked, lawyers were, like, super expensive
16:05RSpliet: I think if someone had that kind of money, it would be better spent on recruiting more nouveau devs
16:05mrnuke: I'm certain that's something the EFF would be very interested in defending. Or a number of other non-profits
16:06imirkin: maybe. maybe not. at the end of the day, i'm the one who's liable.
16:07mrnuke: I sense a lot of FUD
16:08imirkin: go ahead and redistribute yourself.
16:08imirkin: but my life is complicated enough without outside help.
16:08mrnuke: I'm not blaming you or anyone here for the FUD. nvidia hasn't been very forthcoming in the last... all years of its existence.
16:09imirkin: the extent of my contribution to all this is a script which automatically extracts stuff from (some versions of) the blob
16:09mrnuke: imirkin: that's actually really cool!
16:10imirkin: nothing for recent GPUs though
16:10imirkin: haven't had the interest, really
16:10imirkin: i wrote the scanner, that was fun, but it didn't yield much
16:11mrnuke: I haven't had interest in nvidia either. I just got stuck with one of their chips through no fault of my own
16:42Santurysim: Linus' words about nvidia are still true, unfortunately
16:43mrnuke: Santurysim: "This time, Nvidia thumbs up!" ?
16:46Santurysim: mrnuke: "Nvidia is the single worst company we're dealt with. So, nvidia, **** you!"
16:46mrnuke: Santurysim: is that four stars ouf of five?
16:46mrnuke: Santurysim: I know exactly what Linus said. I was just kidding
16:51Santurysim: mrnuke: I didn't understood you correctly, I thought Linus said something else...
16:54mrnuke: Santurysim: There was the famous "Nvidia, frak you" incident. There is also a less known interaction: https://www.cnet.com/news/torvalds-gives-nvidia-software-thumbs-up-not-middle-finger/
19:31RSpliet: mrnuke: mind you, there is this -> https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-doc . There's defo useful stuff in there. For older gens it was erm... "mustard after the meal", but for newer gens I'm sure it's helped bring-up
19:35mrnuke: RSpliet: "If you're going to rape me, just put a condom on" does not imply consent :)
19:38mrnuke: Translation: I'm glad to see there's a little bit more involvement from the green overlords, Though I think it's insufficient with respect to improving the experience of their customers who choose to use linux