12:53 cosurgi: ahh, my favourite irc channel ;)
12:53 imirkin: a good dose of sarcasm, with the occasional helpful comment thrown in the middle?
12:53 cosurgi: yeah ;)
12:54 imirkin: we do what we can
12:54 imirkin: (the royal, editorial we)
12:56 cosurgi: yesterday night I've spent 90 minutes on phone trying to instruct my firend who went to the server room, on how to enable networking. Some server couldn't connect to net no matter what.
12:56 imirkin: i've seen NICs get stuck
12:56 imirkin: reboot usually fixes them right up
12:56 cosurgi: I went grub editing with him, remotely
12:56 RSpliet: I've seen friends get stuck too... could be PEBKAC
12:57 imirkin: sometimes have to actually plug the thing in too
12:57 imirkin: hardware is the worst
12:57 cosurgi: When we gave up. I told him to do one extra restart, and then... he noticed some cable unplugged from the wall socket. He plugged it in. And it started to work.
12:57 cosurgi: Argh
12:57 imirkin: haha
12:57 RSpliet: classic
12:57 imirkin: WHO CALLED IT
12:58 imirkin: :)
12:58 cosurgi: :-)))
12:58 cosurgi: yeah, my wife had a good laugh too ;))
12:59 imirkin: i spent two weeks rewriting a VHDL impl for ATAPI into one for ATA because i couldn't get the cdrom drive to ever read any data, so figured it should with a hard drive
12:59 imirkin: coz who knows what can go wrong with a cdrom
12:59 imirkin: the HDD didn't work either, but made clicking noises
13:00 imirkin: in the end -- not enough power to spin it up.
13:00 imirkin: like i said - hardware is the worst.
13:02 cosurgi: funny thing is that I asked him three times to follow the cable from the server, to its other end. It was connected to some U1 rack switch. And it is that switch which was disconnected from the wall. All light were bliking, so it looked right.
13:05 imirkin: heh
13:05 cosurgi: sometimes I used to put a dead click-of-death HDD into a refrigenator for couple of hours, then reconnect it. I was able to copy some data out of such HDD before it went dead again
13:05 imirkin: yeah, that's a common trick :)
13:05 imirkin: just make sure you wrap in a plastic bag first
13:05 cosurgi: yeah, exactly
13:05 imirkin: otherwise condensing moisture kills it
13:07 cosurgi: actually you are the first person who told me it's a comon trick. Everybody else who I told about this looked up at me like I'm super crazy weirdo
13:07 imirkin: ok, not common like water is common
13:07 cosurgi: :)
13:08 imirkin: common among people who are (a) old enough to remember hard drives that actually spin and aren't sealed in with helium and (b) are huge super-nerds like us, apparently.
13:09 karolherbst: I guess the reason is rather that HDD just don't die as often anymore so nobody needs those tricks really :p
13:09 imirkin: yeah, MTBF on a HDD used to be like 2 years
13:09 karolherbst: I have like 6 2.5" hdds here and only the 320GB one is done for
13:10 karolherbst: it still works though
13:11 karolherbst: it's just noisy and respins quite often
13:11 imirkin: heh. noisy.
13:11 imirkin: ever seen a *full* height hdd?
13:11 cosurgi: no
13:11 karolherbst: the 5.25 or the even bigger ones?
13:11 imirkin: 5.25", but a "standard" cdrom drive is known as "half-height"
13:12 cosurgi: I have an 8.25 inch floppy disk stored in my attic. But no such HDD
13:12 karolherbst: ahh yeah.. seeing the pictures
13:12 karolherbst: I might have seen one though
13:12 imirkin: full-height takes up 2 5.25" slots of a modern case
13:12 karolherbst: ahd has like 10GB storage?
13:12 karolherbst: :p
13:12 imirkin: those things had huge storage... i think like 40MB
13:12 karolherbst: ufff
13:12 imirkin: incredible, right? :)
13:12 karolherbst: my first HDD was like 100MB I think or 1GB, but that was a 3.5 one
13:12 imirkin: so much storage in such a small space
13:13 cosurgi: (8" actually)
13:13 imirkin: yeah
13:13 karolherbst: I already fear that some of my 2.5 HDDs will die shortly though :/
13:13 imirkin: i've never actually seen a live 8" floppy, only pictures
13:13 imirkin: laserdisc was fun though
13:14 imirkin: record-sized cdroms basically :)
13:16 karolherbst: mhh, 9 Power_On_Hours -O--CK 072 072 000 - 21115
17:06 rsq: Hello everyone. Is it possible to detect that a system is running nouveau if nouveau is built-in for the kernel? In this case lsmod | grep nouveau does not work.
17:07 diogenes_: rsq, glxinfo | grep "OpenGL renderer"
17:08 imirkin: rsq: depends how reliable you want to be
17:09 rsq: This is for wayland sessions, I do not know if glxinfo would be available.
17:09 joepublic: just throwing `inxi -G` out there
17:10 Lyude: ls /sys/module/nouveau will tell you if it's built-in for the kernel
17:10 Lyude: but not if it's actually running or not
17:10 rsq: Good tip Lyude .
17:10 Lyude: additionally, if you configured your kernel with the right options sometimes you'll have a config file in /proc/config.gz
17:11 Lyude: note too - /sys/module/nouveau will show if it's built as a module too, so I guess a good way to differentiate between built-in and not would be if it's in lsmod and/or /sys/module
17:11 imirkin: lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 0 Mar 26 13:09 /sys/class/drm/card0/device/driver/module -> ../../../../module/nouveau
17:11 imirkin: this tells you that it's actually bound to nouveau
17:12 rsq: ok, noted. Good info. With this I will be able to handle all cases in my start script.
17:13 rsq: I have to set an extra env variable for nouveau. In wlroots, there are issues with the hardware cursor.
17:14 imirkin: issues with nouveau
17:14 imirkin: or issues in wlroots?
17:15 imirkin: also if you have an actual drm device
17:15 rsq: wlroots I think.
17:15 imirkin: and can do drm ioctl's, you can look it up
17:15 imirkin: let me check how, hold on
17:15 imirkin: yeah
17:15 imirkin: it's in drmVersion->name
17:15 imirkin: drmGetVersion()
19:12 mmenzyns: *
19:13 imirkin: +
19:36 cosurgi: ÷
19:37 imirkin: do you have any idea how hard it was for me to figure out what that meant?
19:37 imirkin: i was in HS, and none of the teachers knew.
19:37 imirkin: (or at least not the ones i asked)
19:38 imirkin: and it's not like there are good indices of mathematical operations
19:38 karolherbst: :D
19:39 karolherbst: that's... kind of sad
19:39 karolherbst: though
19:39 imirkin: how do you search for dag? esp if you don't even know what people call it
19:39 imirkin: you just see it all over some book
19:40 imirkin: good luck on altavista :p
19:40 karolherbst: I have no idea how I would, but we knew what it since the 1st or 2nd year of school
19:41 karolherbst: how else do you do dvisions?
19:41 imirkin: transpose + complex conjugate?
19:41 imirkin: oh, that's the division operator that cosurgi put in there
19:41 karolherbst: :D
19:41 imirkin: that looked like a dag in my font
19:42 imirkin: even when i know what it is, i still can't find it.
19:43 imirkin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjugate_transpose
19:44 imirkin: presumably you weren't learning that in 1st or 2nd year of school...
19:44 karolherbst: nope
19:44 karolherbst: but it was the division operator, soo :p
19:44 karolherbst: we used the asterisk notation though
19:45 imirkin: that's just complex conjugate
19:45 imirkin: (usually)
19:45 imirkin: that's the other problem - none of these things are standardized =/
19:45 RSpliet: maths gets a lot easier if yo limit yourself to ASCII
19:45 karolherbst: right
19:45 karolherbst: hell no
19:45 karolherbst: ASCII only sucks
19:46 karolherbst: 🐧
19:46 imirkin: RSpliet: iso8859-whatever-the-greek-one-is
19:46 karolherbst: then you still miss out random shit
19:46 RSpliet: extended ascii has greek I think?
19:46 imirkin: which extended ascii? :)
19:47 karolherbst: EASCII :p
19:47 imirkin: iso8859-1 has various accents on latin chars
19:47 imirkin: iso8859-5 has cyrillic
19:47 karolherbst: yeah.. but iso was later
19:47 imirkin: aha, iso8859-7 has greek
19:47 imirkin: never heard of EASCII
19:48 karolherbst: I don't think it was ever a thing anyway
19:48 karolherbst: EBCDIC was probably the first one anyway
19:48 karolherbst: I think
19:48 imirkin: EBCDIC is an alternative to ASCII... same general list of chars, just differently laid out
19:48 imirkin: (technically ASCII is an alternative to EBCDIC, but ASCII won)
19:49 imirkin: and IBM also had a thousand different codepages
19:49 karolherbst: true
19:49 karolherbst: ohh wait
19:50 karolherbst: right.. EBCDIC was an extension to this BCDIC shit
19:50 karolherbst: which ... was 6 bit
19:52 karolherbst: ahh HP-Roman was the first ASCII extension
19:52 karolherbst: I think?
20:24 cosurgi: ouch. I didn't expect the conversation to go this way
20:24 cosurgi: In fact I wanted to produce a single small dot, but found division instead. Then I wondered how it will render for you ;)
20:25 cosurgi:still can't find the dot.
20:27 cosurgi:presses AltGr with random keys, and obtaines stuff like: ≤µń”ŋ’ə…łó→↓§·«»»– whoa! Dot! ·
20:27 cosurgi: that AltGr 8
20:27 cosurgi: that's AltGr 8
20:27 cosurgi: found it :)
20:27 imirkin: ·
20:27 imirkin: compose-. + -
20:28 cosurgi: Hm. I haven't mapped compose key. I was too lazy
20:30 cosurgi: I use AltGr for 9 polish letters. That's how I'm used to it. Then all other keys onn the keyboard produce weird symbols, which I started to use and like. For example arrows: ←↓↑→ ↔
20:30 imirkin: yeah, most european keyboards have AltGr, but US don't
20:31 imirkin: so have to use compose key
20:32 linkmauve: But us Europeans also use a compose key, otherwise how are we gonna write Compose+CCCP ☭? :D
20:33 imirkin: wow, that's an awesome sequence
20:33 imirkin: doesn't work here though
20:34 linkmauve: Oh? I thought it was a default in whichever component handles compose key sequences.
20:35 imirkin: xkb does
20:35 imirkin: but i don't have
20:35 linkmauve: % grep SICKLE /usr/share/X11/locale/en_US.UTF-8/Compose
20:35 linkmauve: <Multi_key> <C> <C> <C> <P> : "☭" U262D # HAMMER AND SICKLE
20:36 imirkin: ah, i think i'm not in that locale
20:36 linkmauve: Other ones have an include "/usr/share/X11/locale/en_US.UTF-8/Compose" line.
20:37 imirkin: how do you know which one it picks?
20:37 linkmauve: I have no idea.
20:38 imirkin: hm, for me it's only in the en_US.UTF-8 one
20:40 imirkin: oh wait
20:40 imirkin: ☭
20:40 imirkin: upper-case
20:40 imirkin: didn't think of that.
20:40 imirkin: that's awesome.
20:42 linkmauve: imirkin, /usr/share/X11/locale/compose.dir actually tells whatever reads it which file to load depending on your locale.
20:44 cosurgi: alright, you've won ;) I will map the unused menu key into compose key
20:45 imirkin: linkmauve: i don't have any LOCALE or LC* env vars set
20:45 imirkin: maybe defaults to C.UTF-8
20:45 imirkin: coz C just goes to iso8859-1 which doesn't have those compose keys
20:46 cosurgi: ☭
20:46 cosurgi: ha!
20:46 cosurgi: xmodmap -e "keycode 135 = Multi_key"
20:47 imirkin: союз нерушимый...
20:47 linkmauve: imirkin, ah, might be why.
20:47 cosurgi: (I found the keycode with xev)
20:48 imirkin: linkmauve: no, it works for me. it didn't originally coz i didn't think to use upper-case letters with compose
20:48 cosurgi: -
20:48 imirkin: ·
20:48 cosurgi: ·
20:48 imirkin: yay!
20:49 cosurgi: yeah. I was just checking Compose-
20:49 cosurgi: :-))
21:06 cosurgi: Compose.-
21:06 cosurgi: ·
21:06 cosurgi: •
21:06 cosurgi: :)
21:07 cosurgi: ☺
21:08 imirkin: welcome to the future.
21:08 imirkin: and of course you have all these with AltGr, but it's easy to do stuff like ł (Compose-/ l)
21:08 cosurgi: łł
21:09 cosurgi: hm. l is faster
21:09 cosurgi: ł
21:09 cosurgi: :))
21:09 imirkin: right. but when you're on a US layout, and you use it approximately once a year...
21:10 imirkin: (coz my pøłíŝħ is a little weak...)
21:10 cosurgi: hahah :)
21:11 imirkin: (and i never remember what the pronounciation rules are in the various slavic languages that adopted latin-based alphabets)
21:12 cosurgi: I'm impressed that there was something that you had a chance to forget! :)
21:12 imirkin: well, i learn it for like 5 minutes, and then promptly forget
21:12 imirkin: i remember in polish / = soft
21:14 cosurgi: yes. It is mostly soft.
21:14 imirkin: sometimes hard? :)
21:14 cosurgi: not always though. ó u are spelt exactly the same. I have no idea how I know which one to write.
21:15 imirkin: well, i meant for consonants
21:15 imirkin: in russian, they removed 3-4 letters in 1917
21:15 imirkin: which were that situation - same pronounciation, but you had to be educated to know which to use
21:15 imirkin: which was, you know, sign of bourgeoisie...
21:16 imirkin: so now words that are entirely unrelated are spelled very similarly
21:16 imirkin: (and they also nixed the hard sign at the end of ~every word ending in a consonant)
21:17 cosurgi: ok, let me check: ąćęłńóśźż , these are soft: ąćęłńśź ; this one is hard: ż, and this one sounds the same: ó
21:18 imirkin: no soft z?
21:18 cosurgi: ź
21:18 imirkin: i know, but you said sounds the same?
21:18 imirkin: oh. i see.
21:18 imirkin: ź vs ż
21:18 cosurgi: hm. No. I said ó sounds the same as u. And that 'this one is hard: ż' and that 'these are soft: ąćęłńśź';there is ź, the last one :)
21:19 imirkin: so what's plain ol' "z"?
21:19 imirkin: or it's always accented one way or the other?
21:19 cosurgi: no, we have plain z.
21:19 cosurgi: hmm. What english sound that migh be.
21:19 cosurgi: like s, buut softer than s.
21:19 imirkin: so you have hard, soft AND plain?
21:19 cosurgi: yeah :)
21:19 imirkin: zigh.
21:20 imirkin: :p
21:20 cosurgi: zźż
21:20 cosurgi: that's the end of our alphabbet :)
21:20 imirkin: ok, so "z" doesn't actually sound like "z" (hard or soft)
21:20 imirkin: but more like "s"?
21:20 cosurgi: yeah. Sort of.
21:20 imirkin: learn something every day.
21:21 cosurgi: actually 'ż' and 'rz' sound very much the same.
21:21 imirkin: that i could never remember. the weird r's all over the place
21:21 imirkin: they mean something else don't they
21:21 cosurgi: yeah. That can be annoying
21:21 imirkin: i just ignore letters that don't make sense
21:21 imirkin: good enough :)
21:22 cosurgi: the most crazy language for me is from Chechia
21:22 karolherbst: polish is worse
21:23 cosurgi: very similar when you hear them talk. You can almost make out the words. But when you try to understand what they are talking about the brain gets squeezed
21:23 imirkin: yeah. lots of funnily different words.
21:23 imirkin: like "pozor" means "attention", apparently, and is on street signs everywhere
21:23 imirkin: whereas in russian it means "shame" :)
21:24 cosurgi: and in polish "pozór" means "fake"
21:24 imirkin: also good.