00:29 flacks: that's what happens when you have to write drivers for critical hardware with very little or no documentation :P
00:30 flacks: hats off to all the nouveau developers
00:31 flacks: seriously, I don't care that my card runs at half-speed. it works, it's FOSS - with the exception of the signed firmware - and apart from one bug so far IME, it's phenomenal
00:32 imirkin: half speed is ... generous
00:32 imirkin: i think the clocks are locked at like 10%
00:33 flacks: still. for my day-to-day, I haven't had a single problem
00:34 gnarface: i agree, it's a better driver in every way except the parts that they purposefully obscured
00:34 flacks: I even think the vsync issue only occurs when I use linux-hardened. normal linux has shown the bug once _ever_
00:34 imirkin: chrome blacklisted the opengl provided by nouveau globally, so i think some people would disagree
00:35 flacks:shrugs
00:37 flacks: google is... very opinionated
00:37 flacks: in some ways good, in others, not so much
00:38 flacks: I'd like to see an example where some browser load on nouveau crashes my machine, then I'll reconsider their decision
00:38 imirkin: harder to find one that doesn't crash it...
00:39 imirkin: nouveau is very very very hang-able from userspace
00:39 imirkin: not specific to chrome
00:39 imirkin: and there's zero recovery
00:40 flacks: hm. I recovered :)
00:40 imirkin: you didn't have a gpu hang
00:40 imirkin: you had a weird thing that we don't know what it is yet :)
00:40 flacks: ha :)
00:40 imirkin: the software was written from a "work fast" standpoint, and originally targeted at games
00:41 imirkin: then a lot of desktop toolkits decided that it'd be fun to use opengl
00:41 imirkin: and beat on the driver like a bunch of angry apes
00:41 imirkin: nouveau breaks under such usage :)
00:42 gnarface: to be fair, steam BPM isn't super stable even with the official nvidia drivers
00:42 gnarface: some stuff happens in there that might hang anything
00:42 imirkin: i'm talking about like gtk and qt
00:42 gnarface: and i doubt Valve even knows wtf is going on
00:43 gnarface: i've had some weird hangs with gtk3 on official nvidia drivers too. i also wouldn't blame that on nvidia
00:43 gnarface: er, i mean i also wouldn't blame that on nouveau
00:43 flacks: blame canada
00:43 imirkin: that's not how these things work
00:43 imirkin: if it hangs on nvidia, it's the application's fault
00:43 imirkin: if it hangs on nouveau, it's nouveau's fault
00:44 gnarface: hmm, interesting
00:44 imirkin: try convincing any application developer of anything other than that ... good luck
00:44 gnarface: well i tried convincing Raster in #e and he insisted that the problem is i need to updated to the latest enlightenment :-p
00:45 gnarface: we need to be above such biases
00:45 gnarface: something is wrong with gtk also
00:45 imirkin: well, i'd do the same thing
00:45 imirkin: for no other reason than i don't want to spend time chasing down bugs i've already fixed
00:46 imirkin: if you report bugs against nouveau, first question is, "does it still happen with the latest version"
00:47 gnarface: right, then you report a bug against your distro and they lambast you for not using the version in the repo... so you can see this is just a circular logic clusterfuck
00:47 gnarface: we need to be above such things
00:48 imirkin: eh ...
00:48 imirkin: it's also a good test
00:48 imirkin: if the user can't build a version of my software
00:48 imirkin: then any patch i give won't help them
00:48 imirkin: i don't have infinity time
00:49 gnarface: oh, i'm not saying you shouldn't ask to test against the latest version
00:49 gnarface: i'm just saying it's not always the problem
00:50 imirkin: almost never the problem
00:50 gnarface: sometimes the hardware is fundamentally buggy and everyone is blaming something else
00:50 imirkin: actually i do have to hand it to nvidia -- there are almost no hw bugs we have to work around
00:50 imirkin: esp compared to the amount of workarounds amd and *esp* intel have to do
00:50 imirkin: that said ... ignorance is bliss
00:51 gnarface: interesting
00:51 imirkin: maybe we just don't know we have to work around them, and the issues aren't hit often enough in practice :)
00:51 gnarface: how come Nvidia's own drivers are so much less stable then?
00:51 imirkin: "less stable"?
00:51 gnarface: just may general experience is that random unfixable lockups happen way more with NVidia binary drivers than with intel or amd stuff
00:52 imirkin: that's more about recovery than driver stability
00:52 imirkin: intel is _really_ good at recovery
00:52 gnarface: anyway, there's a clear disparity in effort level somewhere
00:53 gnarface: interesting
19:07 imirkin: skeggsb: i'm thinking of writing some kerneldoc for nouveau. before i spend a bunch of time on it, want to ensure you would not object such an endeavour (can't iamgine why you would though)