14:29 Manoa: hi fellas, a small question, if I have SLI set up on GK110B is there any risk that if I load linux with nouveau there is any damage to the hardware ?
14:32 gnarface: i think it just won't work
14:32 gnarface: but that's a really smart question you should stick around and wait for a real answer to
14:36 Manoa: ok thank :)
14:54 karolherbst: Manoa: I doubt you'd be able to damage the hardware
14:55 karolherbst: the SLI interconnect has to be configured/used in the driver, and we simply don't
14:55 karolherbst: SLI doesn't make it magically one GPU, those are still two
14:55 karolherbst: and you have to talk with both of them
14:55 karolherbst: and dsitribute work inside the driver, etc...
14:56 Manoa: thank :)
14:56 Manoa: I wanne test wine 4 see how it doing
14:57 Manoa: mybe they fixed some things and some games working good this time
16:25 tavvva: Hello guys.
16:25 tavvva: May I ask for help with NV44 and slow 3D ?
16:25 Manoa: yhe sure whay not :)
16:27 tavvva: Manoa: thx. I just installed Linux Mint (=Ubuntu) on a HW witg Geforce 7100 GS and trying openscad and glxgears. Both is very slow ... ~5 fps
16:28 Manoa: did you checked glxinfo ?
16:28 tavvva: and don't know what to check / change
16:28 Manoa: open console and type glxinfo, look at the top and see if you can find a line that says direct rendering
16:29 tavvva: not yet ... the output is quite long and don't know what to search for
16:29 ajax: glxinfo | grep renderer:
16:29 ajax: these days glxinfo will almost always say direct rendering is enabled
16:30 ajax: because "direct" really means "running in the X client's address space", and technically llvmpipe _does_ run on the client side
16:30 tavvva: direct rendering: Yes
16:32 Manoa: type what ajax says :)
16:32 tavvva: $ glxinfo | grep renderer
16:32 tavvva:    GLX_MESA_multithread_makecurrent, GLX_MESA_query_renderer,  
16:32 tavvva:    GLX_MESA_query_renderer, GLX_MESA_swap_control, GLX_OML_swap_method,  
16:32 tavvva: Extended renderer info (GLX_MESA_query_renderer):
16:32 tavvva: OpenGL renderer string: NV44
16:32 tavvva: there was nothing with colon
16:33 ajax: my bad
16:33 ajax: but apparently you do have nouveau enabled, so... not sure why it's that slow for you
16:34 Manoa: NV44 that's fixed pipeline no ?
16:35 ajax: no, nv4x have shaders
16:36 Manoa: let's take a look at your Xorg log: open /var/log/Xorg.0.log and paste it somewhere like gist.github.com let's take a look at it
16:38 tavvva: https://paste.debian.net/1073148/
16:41 Manoa: I see nothing wrong :x
16:41 Manoa: you guys see anything wrong in the x log ?
16:44 Manoa: has anything been done to the system lately ? an update ? a new software ?
16:45 tavvva: nope .... it's a clean install
16:45 tavvva: the glxgears FPS is dependent on the window size
16:46 tavvva: when the window is small, then i get over 30 FPS
16:46 tavvva: that looks like there's no acceleration at all
16:47 tavvva: I guess there shouldn't be so huge difference if everything runs well
16:47 Manoa: did you tried using the modesetting driver instead of nouveau DDX ?
16:47 tavvva: I didn't
16:48 tavvva: I haven't
16:48 Manoa: wanne try it ? I advice to be carful it does have some risk ... I think
16:48 Manoa: it can freeze the computer
16:49 tavvva: well ... I'm not sure how to do it .... any howto?
16:49 Manoa: le'ts check if you have it first
16:50 Manoa: ok, first make a backup of your /etc/X11/xorg.conf, make a copy of it somewhere so you could restore it later from a console
16:51 Manoa: cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf /etc/X11/xorg.conf.backup should work in a console
16:51 tavvva: don't have xorg.conf .... seems there's an autodetection
16:52 tavvva: should I generate one with Xorg -configure ?
16:53 Manoa: I wouldn't trust that, you could give it a shot but it might just use the same nouveau driver
16:53 tavvva: depends whether we want to edit the file or create new from scratch
16:54 Manoa: it's no problem to create the file, you can just remove it or back ip up later
16:54 tavvva: if the latter, then we can skip it I guess
16:54 towo`: you don't need a xorg.conf file
16:54 tavvva: ok ... let's skip the backup then :]
16:54 towo`: you only need to uninstall the nouveau-ddx
16:55 Manoa: uninstall ? what if this dosen't work ?
16:55 towo`: then x will use mnodesetting by default
16:55 towo`: Manoa, what then? reinstalling it and all is god (or bad) as before
16:56 Manoa: debian .... how it's uninstall let see
16:57 towo`: apt ourge xserver-xorg-video-nouveau
16:57 towo`: grr
16:57 towo`: apt purge xserver-xorg-video-nouveau
16:57 tavvva: done
16:58 Manoa: ok give it a shot let see what hapen :)
16:58 Manoa: start the x server again
16:58 tavvva: ok ... c.u. in a couple of seconds .... hopefully :D
17:02 tavvva: back
17:03 tavvva: still slow :/
17:05 tavvva: anything else to try?
17:05 Manoa: any chance that if it's not reclocking it could be 5 fps ?
17:05 Manoa: I would take a look at your performance states
17:07 Manoa: try this in the console: cat /sys/kernel/debug/dri/0/pstate
17:07 tavvva: 20: core 350 MHz shader 350 MHz memory 666 MHz
17:07 tavvva: AC: core 200 MHz shader 0 MHz memory 401 MHz
17:08 Manoa: nothing with asterisk on it ?
17:08 tavvva: just these two lines
17:09 Manoa: it looks like you have broken performance states
17:09 tavvva: I'm using the modesetting driver now
17:09 Manoa: which is not surprising because your card is listed as STALLED
17:09 tavvva: should I install it again?
17:09 Manoa: up to you
17:10 Manoa: being as it is I don't know if the performance states problem has something to do with the slow performance :x
17:10 tavvva: me neither :D
17:11 tavvva: and with this kernel and mint version it isn't possible to install the closed source nvidia drivers anymore ....
17:11 Manoa: regardless I recommend to wait a developer to tell you if anything should be done about your performance states
17:11 Manoa: it's possible they are responsible for the problem
17:11 tavvva: ok ...... who to ask?
17:11 Manoa: just wait they will come around
17:12 Manoa: for now I see what else I can think about
17:12 tavvva: ok, thanks for your time
17:12 tavvva: gonna return the driver
17:12 Manoa: ok
17:18 Manoa: no chance this card does 5 fps at 200 mhz is there guys ?
17:21 tavvva: X-Files :]
18:07 Manoa: do you have glamor or desktop compositing enabled ?
18:07 Manoa: can you disable them ?
19:09 tavvva: I'm back ... lemme look
19:12 tavvva: Argh .... it seems compiz is installed in this version of Mint by default
19:54 tavvva: back
19:54 tavvva: glxgears is faster .... 19 FPS
19:54 tavvva: openscad still 5FPS
19:55 karolherbst: tavvva: mhh, what's the output of glxinfo?
19:55 karolherbst: ohh, you already checked
19:55 karolherbst: weird
19:56 tavvva: yup
19:56 karolherbst: ajax: one issue with pre nv50 is, that we don't have a roper shader compiler
19:56 karolherbst: *proper
19:56 karolherbst: esentially just an assembler
19:57 karolherbst: imirkin started to look into nir for that, but I doubt he got to anything
19:57 karolherbst: and I don't have such a GPU anyway
19:57 karolherbst: tavvva: ever checked how fast that is with the nvidia driver?
19:58 tavvva: karolherbst: had no chance yet ...
19:58 karolherbst: tavvva: 304.137 should be the latest supported here
19:59 tavvva: I would have to install an older distro to get the nvidia driver working
19:59 karolherbst: and I would rather check the perf with that first
19:59 karolherbst: we sure will be slower, but the question is by how much
19:59 tavvva: it cannot be built with the 4.x kernel
19:59 karolherbst: tavvva: what fps does glxgears report if started with vblank_mode=0?
19:59 karolherbst: mhh, "2017.9.19" release date... meh
20:00 tavvva: is the vblank_mode a shell/env variable?
20:01 karolherbst: yeah
20:01 tavvva: 22.6 FPS
20:01 tavvva: still poor
20:01 karolherbst: 22.6 is way too slow
20:02 karolherbst: LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=1 vblank_mode=0 glxgears
20:02 karolherbst: just want to check something
20:02 tavvva: I get two times more with 32-bit machine and much older card
20:02 karolherbst: anything below 100 is poor
20:03 karolherbst: tavvva: is it the GeFource 6200?
20:03 karolherbst: or 6500?
20:04 karolherbst: tavvva: ohh wait, you are using the modesetting driver?
20:04 karolherbst: uff
20:04 karolherbst: I think that's a terribly idea on those older cards
20:05 karolherbst: or... I think you meant something else
20:05 karolherbst: nvm
20:06 karolherbst: anyway, you really want to use xserver-xorg-video-nouveau on this gpu
20:14 tavvva: sorry ... I have visitors here and cannot answer immediately
20:14 tavvva: I'm not using the modesetting driver anymore
20:14 tavvva: I just tested the driver and returned everything back again
20:15 tavvva: karolherbst: It's NVIDIA Corporation NV44 [GeForce 7100 GS] (rev a1)
20:15 karolherbst: tavvva: uff
20:16 karolherbst: the 7100 is seriously slow
20:16 tavvva: does it mean I cannot expect better results on this machine?
20:16 karolherbst: depends, what GPU did you checked before or compared it to?
20:17 tavvva: I compared to much older card on a 32-bit machine and the older card was 2 times faster
20:17 tavvva: i can't believe it performs so badly
20:17 karolherbst: well, depends on what thise card use
20:18 karolherbst: older doesn't mean slower
20:18 karolherbst: like 6800 will be faster by a huge factor compared to the 7100, even though it's 2 years older
20:19 karolherbst: tavvva: I think there are essentially two issues: the clocks and the compiler
20:19 karolherbst: tavvva: I expect that echo "20" into the pstate file did nothing?
20:19 karolherbst: I don't think it's supported on that GPU by nouveau
20:19 tavvva: what echo?
20:19 tavvva: i probably missed a message
20:19 karolherbst: echo "20" > pstate
20:20 karolherbst: or rather
20:20 karolherbst: echo "20" > /sys/kernel/debug/dri/0/pstate
20:20 karolherbst: I doubt that works at all
20:20 karolherbst: I'd expect a 70% speedup if that would work
20:20 karolherbst: proper shader compiler might give a 2x to 3x speedup
20:20 tavvva: with LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=1 it's faster :D
20:20 karolherbst: yeah.. uses the CPU then
20:21 tavvva: 24 FPS :D
20:21 karolherbst: oh well
20:21 karolherbst: that little
20:21 tavvva: the cpu is some weak dualcore intel at 1.8GHz
20:21 karolherbst: anyway, there is a lot of things one could do to speed it up on the nv44
20:21 karolherbst: but... I don't have the hardware and nor the time to look into it.. sadly
20:22 karolherbst: so somebody willing to write some code and reverse engineer some stuff would have to do it
20:22 tavvva: could you please repeat the echo call ?
20:22 karolherbst: echo "20" > /sys/kernel/debug/dri/0/pstate
20:22 karolherbst: as root
20:24 tavvva: wooow
20:24 tavvva: 43.099 FPS
20:24 karolherbst: uff, so that works? interesting
20:24 karolherbst: mind doing a "cat /sys/kernel/debug/dri/0/pstate" again?
20:24 tavvva: 20: core 350 MHz shader 350 MHz memory 666 MHz AC DC *
20:24 tavvva: AC: core 351 MHz shader 0 MHz memory 666 MHz
20:25 tavvva: openscad is usable .... >10FPS
20:25 karolherbst: mhh, wondering what that shader thing is all about
20:26 karolherbst: but yeah, nice that this works
20:26 tavvva: does it make sense to try other values?
20:26 karolherbst: tavvva: you can set it by default through booting with "nouvau.config=NvClkMode=0x20"
20:26 karolherbst: tavvva: no
20:26 karolherbst: there is just the 20: line
20:26 karolherbst: nothing more
20:26 karolherbst: those older cards usually didn't have any other perf states
20:26 karolherbst: just the one
20:26 tavvva: ok
20:26 karolherbst: and sometimes they boot with something slower
20:27 karolherbst: apperantly
20:27 karolherbst: writing a proper nir compiler backend for that GPU should be a fun project
20:27 tavvva: will the card produce more heat now?
20:27 karolherbst: just needs some C skills
20:27 karolherbst: tavvva: maybe? but probably not much
20:27 karolherbst: the voltage should be the same still
20:28 karolherbst: I'd expect 10% higher temperature at most
20:28 tavvva: ok ... I'll keep it this way then .... thanks a lot
20:28 karolherbst: no worries
20:29 tavvva: should I file a bug report against nouveau or other component?
20:29 karolherbst: what would you expect to happen then?
20:29 karolherbst: we don't enable that by default, because nouveau might mess up
20:30 tavvva: a change of the default settings?
20:30 tavvva: oh ok ....
20:30 karolherbst: and we can't guarentee it works in 100% of all cases
20:30 tavvva: I don't understand exactly what the purpose of the parameter is :]
20:30 karolherbst: it increases the GPU clocks
20:30 tavvva: ok .... so overclocking
20:30 tavvva: thx
20:30 karolherbst: well
20:30 karolherbst: "overclocking" means going above the spec
20:31 karolherbst: but we are still on the "normal" clocks
20:31 karolherbst: it's more like something the nvidia driver does as well
20:31 tavvva: does it mean nouveau is unable to guess the right value because you don't have enough info from the manufacturer?
20:32 tavvva: and the closed source driver has this logic somewhere inside
20:32 karolherbst: mhh, "guessing" is the wrong phrase. We have no documentation for the GPUs, so we have to reverse engineer what nvidia does
20:32 karolherbst: and this can be different from GPU to GPU
20:32 karolherbst: making it work for one GPU is more or less trivial, making it work for all GPUs is not
20:33 tavvva: ok, understand
20:33 tavvva: thanks a lot guys