17:38 gnarface: well, the fans are working normally again but i don't know what could possibly have changed of relevance
17:40 gnarface: my only two theories are that somehow using Directx12 (but not DX11) in just one particular Wine version was somehow breaking fan support when it crashed Xorg, or somehow re-installing the same kernel packages a third time somehow fixed it by re-triggering dkms...
17:40 gnarface: ...even though it didn't the first 2 times and dkms shouldn't have been happening anyway
17:40 gnarface: anyway, it's still a mystery but the important part is they work normally again, so sorry for the noise
18:52 Venemo: gnarface: was there another kernel update that fixed it?
19:00 gnarface: Venemo: no, couldn't have been; i literally reinstalled the same kernel package
19:02 Venemo: gnarface: I see. maybe something was physically blocking the fans? some dust or some dirt?
19:03 gnarface: lol, no, first thing i checked
19:03 gnarface: they're clean because they almost never spin
19:04 gnarface: right before i noticed this happening though, i had just upgraded dxvk in my wine prefix for world of warcraft, and seen a warning that my video card was officially no longer supported by it... i launched wow anyway and it worked albeit at a severe performance penalty... i was screwing around with settings and noticed dx12 was available and tried it to see if it would help
19:05 gnarface: it didn't help, and wow crashed the entire desktop, Xorg bailing with no error
19:05 gnarface: didn't happen right away, took a few minutes
19:05 gnarface: during that time i noticed the fans not working
19:05 gnarface: and the video card getting REALLY hot (90-100C
19:05 gnarface: )
19:06 gnarface: i thought the crash was a fluke, but then the next 3 or 4 times in a row, WoW would crash almost instantly, at the login screen, until i put it back in DX11 mode
19:06 gnarface: you don't think DX12 could have broke the video driver's state somehow, do you?
19:06 gnarface: like i said, that's the only things that seem even remotely possibly relevant i can guess at
19:07 gnarface: working fine now in multiple games, including WoW (performance in WoW is still tanked though, but i assume that's related to dxvk dropping my card)
19:08 gnarface: anyway, 2 reinstalls of the same kernel followed by a reboot each, and it's fine now but i'm not gonna risk trying DX12 again
19:12 gnarface: just rebooting and changing wow back to dx11 didn't fix it, to be clear
19:13 gnarface: reinstalling the kernel again and rebooting again still didn't fix it
19:13 gnarface: reinstalling the kernel and rebooting another time is what appears to have fixed it
19:13 gnarface: that's freaking weird, right?
19:14 gnarface: someone in another channel mentioned that dxvk might be normal even for amdgpu in the case of using an initramfs, which debian kernels do by default
19:14 gnarface: er, sorry s/dxvk/dkms/ there
19:14 gnarface: (the earlier mentions today i did mean dxvk)
19:15 gnarface: so, i dunno, maybe somehow the initramfs got corrupted and... didn't get flushed on the first reinstall? i dunno
19:15 gnarface: that all seems suspect since you guys said it's not even supposed to happen
19:18 gnarface: oh, and to be clear, WoW would take down Xorg entirely every time it crashed that way
19:18 gnarface: maybe it did something to the driver somehow that persisted in ram state through reboot once? i think the second reboot i might have actually shut down instead...
19:19 gnarface: feels like i'm going crazy here
19:19 gnarface: i'm definitely gonna keep a closer eye on it from now on, any speculation about what might have caused it would be appreciated
20:40 Venemo: gnarface: what do you mean by "dxvk dropping your card"? this didn't happen
20:41 Venemo: gnarface: with regards to taking down Xorg, unfortunately that is the case when a GPU reset happens.
21:14 gnarface: Venemo: uh, yea it did happen. as of dxvk 2.7 it said cards without this one particular vulkan instruction aren't supported anymore, and apparently my rx5500 is the last one that didn't have it. i'd need a rx 6000 or later. it's right there in the output of winetricks when installing dxvk in that prefix. i'd love to be wrong about this, because it cost me about 10fps in my minimum WoW framerates
21:15 gnarface: i forget the exact instruction name... if i could find a winetricks log maybe i can dig it up for you...
21:15 gnarface: ugh, i already deleted the old wine prefix
21:16 gnarface: certainly this must be public information though...
21:16 gnarface: i got the confirmation from google
21:16 gnarface: (i know in the era of AI search results that's not necessarily a guarantee)
21:16 gnarface: hmm
21:17 gnarface: google's AI search result when i search for "dxvk 2.7 dropping support for devices without..." though does indeed say:
21:17 gnarface: DXVK 2.7 has indeed dropped support for older Vulkan drivers that do not support the
21:17 gnarface: VK_KHR_maintenance5 Vulkan extension.
21:17 gnarface: you think my card actually has that instruction and it's just that my current driver is too old?
21:18 gnarface: i never ended up trying that backports kernel with the newer driver because several sources were sounding a warning that the kernel version as well as the corresponding mesa version were horrifically broken, so i just kept the debian stable ones
21:19 gnarface: vulkaninfo doesn't show that instruction for my card, but i wouldn't know how to confirm or refute whether that means the hardware is missing it or just the driver
21:23 gnarface: i would really love to be wrong about this and get my ~10FPS back
21:38 Venemo: gnarface: what vulkan instruction are you talking about?
21:38 KitsuWhooa: https://github.com/doitsujin/dxvk/releases/tag/v2.7
21:38 KitsuWhooa: > The Vulkan extension VK_KHR_maintenance5 is now required
21:38 KitsuWhooa: > these older GPUs will keep working on RADV when using Mesa 25.0 or newer
21:39 Venemo: aha
21:39 Venemo: well you got your answer there, then
21:39 Venemo: however, that post mentions Polaris and Vega, and the 5500 is not that.
21:43 gnarface: Venemo: yea, i noticed that, but vulkaninfo doesn't list that instruction for my card either
21:47 gnarface: i don't know where to get any more authoritative info about the hardware other than asking you guys though
21:50 Venemo: gnarface: what instruction are you talking about?
21:50 gnarface: VK_KHR_maintenance5
21:50 Venemo: if you mean VK_KHR_maintenance5 that is not an instruction, it's an extension
21:51 gnarface: oh, sorry, i guess i meant extension then. i'm not clear on the distinction or the terminology i guess.
21:52 Venemo: which mesa version do you use?
21:52 gnarface: just the debian stable version - appears to be 22.3.6
21:53 gnarface: 25.x is in stable backports right now but like i said, i hesitated because coincidentally people in other channels were sending up a warning that it breaks a bunch of things
21:54 Venemo: Well, look
21:55 Venemo: If you want to use driver versions released in 2022, you shouldn't be surprised that stuff newer than 2022 won't work
21:56 gnarface: i get that, but it's not like every game i have here is broken
21:56 Venemo: Officially, only the last two Mesa releases are supported. If you use something older, you are on your own.
21:57 gnarface: this seems to be an isolated corner case, and i still don't have any authoritative, informed sources that can confirm or deny whether updating the driver would magically give me "VK_KHR_maintenance5" and my assumption with no other information would be no
21:57 Venemo: Also, why would you want to pair Mesa 22 with DXVK from 2025?
21:57 Venemo: gnarface: what is an "authoritative answer" to you?
21:58 Venemo: there you go, here is the documentation from the maintenance5 extension: https://registry.khronos.org/vulkan/specs/latest/man/html/VK_KHR_maintenance5.html it was released in mid 2023, more than 2 years ago
21:59 gnarface: 1) i didn't want to, i was forced to update my Wine version because Battle.net enforced it, then i foolishly updated DXVK at the same time because using an old DXVK with a new Wine usually doesn't work right
21:59 gnarface: then i didn't have any way to downgrade it
21:59 Venemo: here is the commit in mesa that adds this extension to features.txt - https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/merge_requests/24980/diffs?commit_id=6d3a7c1773fb5907d5816d8beaddaefd3bc3b2cc also from 2023
21:59 gnarface: 2) i thought you guys were the authoritative source, but then you demurred on actually confirming whether my hardware could do this
22:00 Venemo: I just gave you two links about exactly this, so if you don't believe my word you can verify it on the links
22:00 gnarface: ... are you telling me that VK_KHR_maintenance5 is a mesa feature, not a hardware feature?
22:00 gnarface: i inferred it was a hardware feature by the DXVK warning output
22:01 gnarface: it's not that i didn't belie you, it's that you weren't being clear about what seems to now be your answer
22:02 Venemo: VK_KHR_maintenance5 is a Vulkan extension. Mesa is the place where Vulkan drivers are implemented. If your GPU is the Radeon RX 5500 then your Vulkan driver is RADV, which is developed as part of Mesa. As you can see RADV supports the maintenance 5 extension since at least mid-2023, as you can see on the link above.
22:02 gnarface: the firmware-amd-graphics package version is a datestamp: 20230210
22:02 gnarface: not 2022
22:03 Venemo: Vulkan extensions are implemented in Mesa. they have nothing to do with your GPU firmware
22:03 gnarface: ok, that's an important clue i didn't know before
22:03 gnarface: thank you for the clarification
22:03 gnarface: i had assumed by context they were a hardware feature, apologies for the confusion
22:04 Venemo: Some extensions require hardware features, but this one should be fine.
22:04 gnarface: hmm, noted
22:05 Venemo: Please, just upgrade your drivers and let us know if it works then.
22:06 Venemo: Keep in mind on other operating systems, you wouldn't use a driver that is this old
22:07 gnarface: like i said, i would have already tried that. i was about to in fact, when coincidentally in 2 other channels i was independently warned against using kernel 6.12 and mesa 25.x because they'll break [all kinds of other stuff] ... a risk that wasn't worth it just for WoW, since my fans had just "magically" started working again
22:08 KitsuWhooa: Can always set up timeshift
22:08 gnarface: true...
22:11 Venemo: gnarface: what does mesa 25.x break on the RX 5500? can you point me to some bug reports on that?
22:12 gnarface: i could only point you to the channel logs of #e on irc.libera.chat
22:13 Venemo: okay
22:13 gnarface: someone said that enlightenment with wayland is broken in mesa 25 but it's a mesa bug not an enlightenment bug, and then vaguely claimed raster had mentioned [unspecified other breakages] unrelated to that
22:14 gnarface: i'm using x11 still but couldn't get any clear confirmation i wouldn't be affected
22:14 Venemo: Well, tell them they should open a bug report for that in the mesa issue tracker, then
22:14 gnarface: i believe raster did, that's what i inferred from the scrollback at the time anyway
22:14 Venemo: okay, then link the issue please
22:15 gnarface: i... don't even know where to search
22:15 gnarface: i'm not an enlightenment or mesa dev here, i'm not exactly in the loop
22:15 Venemo: I'm a mesa dev but don't know anything about this
22:15 gnarface: nobody dropped the bug report link directly in chat
22:16 HdkR: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/issues/13480 Seems promising but it has such little information that it is hard to tell.
22:16 Venemo: Alright then, it's up to you. If you don't want to upgrade your driver then you can keep using an older dxvk too, which should work fine.
22:16 Venemo: I'm going to sleep now but I'll read you tomorrow. Good night!
22:16 gnarface: i couldn't figure out how to downgrade dxvk with winetricks but i assumed WoW wouldn't let me in with the older version anyway
22:18 gnarface: i had only upgraded to wine 10 in the first place because it stopped letting me log in with wine 9
22:19 gnarface: i'm considering the upgrade, but i'm hoping to hear about fixes being released first...
22:19 KitsuWhooa: If it is 13480, that's on Intel...
22:22 HdkR: Yea, probably unrelated breakage if anything there.
22:22 gnarface: hmm, noted
22:23 gnarface: it's not possible to use mesa 25 and the newer firmware-amd-graphics version with the 6.1 kernel i currently have, right?
22:24 gnarface: i have been assuming i have to upgrade them all together
22:24 iive: gnarface, my general advice is to use a distribution that keeps packages up-to-date
22:24 gnarface: iive: heh, noted
22:26 iive: if you target gaming, you could try SteamOS... I think they started with debian fork, but nowdays it's more of archlinux. Or so I've heard.
22:27 gnarface: yea, that's the case, though, for the record, all my Steam games work just fine with the stable debian mesa and amdgpu and kernel i'm currently using... even the ones i'm playing through proton still all work fine with the proton version based on wine 9
22:28 airlied: doesn't debian have some sort of backports repo?
22:28 gnarface: airlied: yea, that's the 6.12 and mesa 25 versions i mentioned i was considering upgrading to, before i was warned against it
22:29 gnarface: they have backports, but the quality control isn't as good as the actual stable release, so usually using them is an act of desperation
22:30 airlied: not sure the actual stable release quality control for gpu drivers is that miuch better
22:30 gnarface: it really seems to be, unless you have hardware that post-dates them, which mine doesn't
22:32 gnarface: i mean, at least for amdgpu it has been... nvidia drivers have been bad across the board regardless of version, that's why i switched in fact