01:07 tavvva: it seems the nouveau in 5.11.14-300.fc34 works without problems
01:09 tavvva: just the hibernation is still broken
01:12 imirkin: pmoreau: btw, looks like you missed the membar commit
01:12 imirkin: (or skipped?)
07:49 pmoreau: karolherbst: 😀 I have not looked at Rust yet, but might do some day to at least get the basics.
07:50 pmoreau: karolherbst: BTW, are you still working a bit on OpenCL for Fermi+, and how would you describe the current status there?
07:52 pmoreau: imirkin: I looked through it and did not see anything weird with it, but it looks like magic to me. Maybe an A-b could work there, but I certainly did not feel confident enough to R-b it.
09:37 karolherbst: pmoreau: it works more or less on mesa master
09:37 karolherbst: just not really having time to deal with the remaining issues
09:37 karolherbst: fixing multithreading is just one part of it as CL is... thread safe by default *sigh*
09:38 pmoreau: Multi-threading is definitely a big ticket
13:03 imirkin: pmoreau: complete magic. but based on your traces, i think :)
14:18 pmoreau: 🤣 true that!
14:21 imirkin: i was going based on the assumption that NV didn't do that stuff just for fun
16:39 imirkin: pmoreau: btw, not sure if you saw, but i left some random comments on gitlab on a few of your commits
16:39 imirkin: pmoreau: i think the MemoryOpt stuff will require a bit more consideration, but overall seems reasonable otherwise
16:58 pmoreau: I saw them, just haven’t had time to reply to them yet. :-)
16:59 karolherbst: imirkin: btw, we get alignment information from nir
17:00 karolherbst: might make sense to pass that through and just make use of that instead of assuming anything
17:05 imirkin: karolherbst: sure, if you can
17:05 imirkin: it's a bit of a task, i suspect, but you can def do it
18:06 tertl3: tis funny a lady at the kava bar came and sat next to me and told that I was a gypsy and that she was too
18:07 tertl3: then she showed me her ancestors on 23 and me
18:12 Lyude: tertl3: again - let's not use that terminology please :)
18:36 tertl3: okay but I identify with it now
18:36 tertl3: i like it
19:04 Lyude: tertl3: that's great for you, doesn't mean it's appropriate to say or that everyone else is ok with it
19:05 imirkin: Lyude: this is getting a little annoying ... there is no definitive "one true list" for these things
19:05 imirkin: your list may differ from other people's lists
19:05 imirkin: different languages/cultures may have different lists
19:06 imirkin: i think it's pretty clear from context that it's not meant in a slighting/derogatory way, so i'd just leave it alone.
19:09 Lyude: that's literally not what's happening here and i've had roma people explain this to me. if that's your language and how you like to refer to yourself on your own time, that's fine. but there are plenty of people who find this stuff offensive, and it's genuinely hard for me to believe that is more difficult for someone to stop using a single word with offensive cannotations then it is not to. if
19:09 Lyude: you think that's annoying, i don't know what to tell you :).
19:12 imirkin: if people here are offended by it, they're welcome to educate. i've also had it explained to me that 'roma' is offensive.
19:12 imirkin: i can't keep track of all this stuff
19:14 Lyude: the onus should not be on the person who is personally affected by it, the onus is on the people helping to maintain the project to ensure that the project is welcoming for everyone. and really - there's so much more of a big deal being made of this then there needs to be. i asked someone to stop using a word, they could stop using the word. that's literally where the conversation would have ended
19:14 imirkin: yes, ensuring the project is welcoming is a great goal
19:14 imirkin: if only peopel could agree on what that means
19:27 Lyude: i think it is pretty clear what that means. language that's offensive to people isn't necessary, and pushes people who actually are bothered by that out of the community (usually without them even bothering to talk to anyone or mention it, because if you cannot even moderate basic racial slurs why should they expect the community to be in any way welcoming?). asking someone not to use terminology
19:27 Lyude: and explaining that it's offensive does not push someone out who is willing to learn and improve themselves. i've had it explained to me that something I did was offensive multiple times in the past, and you know what? literally all I needed to do was stop doing the thing, and then it was fine. that's it. i can't remember a single point it ever escalated beyond that. and i'm still here, I don't
19:27 Lyude: live every day in fear of walking on egg shells. I just try to be mindful of this stuff, and take responsibility when I make a mistake. it's not hard.
19:28 imirkin: i think that's a good example - you did something which offended person X, they told you, you stopped (presumably). sounds like the system works.
19:30 imirkin: going around telling people they shouldn't use some word because some other person could get offended is a next level after that
19:30 imirkin: and *does* make people (well, me to be specific) like they're walking on egg shells
19:34 Lyude: ah yes, the slippery slope argument
19:35 imirkin: (that should be "... feel like they're ...", obviously)
19:39 Lyude: imirkin: btw, you know how many times i've heard this argument?
19:39 imirkin: dunno, but i imagine many
19:40 imirkin: and let me guess - you weren't swayed
19:40 imirkin: which ... is fine
19:40 imirkin: i'm not here to sway you.
19:56 ccr: weston, then?
19:57 RSpliet: ccr: what about it?
20:02 ccr: just a pun, "<imirkin> i'm not here to sway you."
20:19 RSpliet: Ah, sorry, that went over my head like pigeons on the Dam.
20:24 ccr:apologizes for the low quality of his puns :D
20:24 RSpliet: No, no... I do the same
20:39 Lyude: imirkin: i mean I just kind of mentioned that because it's like, that same argument kept getting brought up after a certain public announcement from X.org ;P. and I mention that mostly to point out that like, the argument gets thrown around a lot because it seems like a legitimate argument and issue at the surface, but it's not as legitimate of a point as it seems because people generally point
20:39 Lyude: out problematic language because it contributes to discrimination - not because they have something to gain from it. pointing this kind of stuff out typically doesn't benefit someone, and quite often it's the opposite - you're taking on an active risk in some places (not here, specifically, I'm talking generally) for how people will respond to you pointing something like that out. i've heard
20:39 Lyude: plenty of stories of someone calling out behavior in say the kernel community, only to have half the community come back to them and have a pile-on thread about how they shouldn't be so upset by whatever problematic behavior is in question.
20:41 imirkin: i think overall people need to become a lot less sensitive.
20:46 Lyude: ironic
20:58 Lyude: like, you understand what is incredibly ironic about that statement... right?
20:59 imirkin: dunno about *incredibly* ironic, but yes, i do see some irony there
21:00 imirkin: doesn't change my opinion though
21:05 Lyude: so how do you expect people to actually say anything is actually offensive when this is the kind of response that comes out. why exactly would people have the energy to try to explain this in detail, only to have it go nowhere, when they could just go ditch this project and go work on something else. like-we put the onus on explaining when something is offended on the people affected, but this is
21:05 Lyude: the typical response they're expected to deal with?
21:06 imirkin: well, i think the example you outlined seems ideal
21:06 imirkin: someone says thing X
21:06 imirkin: someone else says that X is offensive to them for Y reasons (assuming it's not trivially obvious)
21:07 imirkin: the first person, ideally, takes that to heart
21:08 imirkin: having third parties enforce these standards leads to "thought police" style activity, which i find to be unacceptable.
21:08 Lyude: where. where does it lead there. show me where our thought police are
21:11 imirkin: giving out concrete examples will, sadly, opens me up to judgement if you (or larger community, as this is logged) happens to disagree with me. and *that* is the thought police.
21:13 Lyude: man you know if i saw someone say that shit when I first got interested in nouveau i'd have left this project more or less immediately
21:14 imirkin: sounds like there may be some incompatibility between our individual sensibilities
21:15 imirkin: on the bright(?) side, i *very* much prefer to avoid this type of conversation, and stick to tech things
21:16 imirkin: and i very much dislike when such topics take center stage
21:18 Lyude: honestly you are part of the problem
21:19 imirkin: i'm part of *a* problem
21:19 Lyude: no-you're part of the problem that prompted me to even bother trying to explain this in the first place
21:20 imirkin: ah ok
21:20 imirkin: of course i see your actions as part of a problem as well, hence all my explanations
21:20 imirkin: but i doubt either of us will convince the other here.
21:38 karolherbst: RSpliet: you must have gotten so many medals for that, how are you still not working full time on nouveau with all that gold in your apartment
21:40 karolherbst: imirkin: racism starts where people only watch and don't do anything about it
21:40 karolherbst: that's it
21:41 karolherbst: the worst you can say is "why do you care, it doesn't affect you directly"
21:41 karolherbst: of course, we didn't had the situation where somebody was actively treated in a rasistic way, the situation is just not as simple as "don't care"
21:42 karolherbst: also using the term "thought police" says more about that person than the person might want to admint
21:42 karolherbst: *Admit
21:43 imirkin: yes, there's a good quote about that from the nazi era of germany... let me see if i can find it
21:44 imirkin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
21:44 Lyude: oh god don't do that. do not say this is the same as an event where millions of people died. what the fuck
21:45 imirkin: i think it's a very thought-provoking (and short) text. just gave a bit of historical context for it.
21:46 karolherbst: Lyude: yeah......
21:46 imirkin: it also expresses fairly crisply how i feel
21:46 Lyude: no. you getting told you can't use a racial slur is not the same as an event where millions of people died. that's absolutely not fucking appropriate
21:46 karolherbst: imirkin: why is it provoking?
21:47 imirkin: in a way that's better than i ever could
21:47 karolherbst: imirkin: ehh.. it doesn't
21:47 imirkin: karolherbst: thought-provoking. i.e. "makes you think". (at least it makes me think.)
21:48 karolherbst: well, not me, as I know what is meant by that
21:48 karolherbst: or well, understand
21:52 karolherbst: and the roma people are essentially in this situation. They are treated _badly_ and most people don't even recognize they do that.
21:52 karolherbst: racism against Roma people is a _huge_ problem
21:52 karolherbst: it's so huge, that more than 50% of people are racist towrads them and most don't recoginize this
21:52 karolherbst: living in the affected countries
21:52 karolherbst: especially east europe
21:53 karolherbst: so yes, if somebody says something racist towards them, I will say something
21:53 karolherbst: and that's it
21:53 imirkin: sounds reasonable
21:53 imirkin: that was never the case here.
21:56 karolherbst: yeah, I mentioned that. But the other thing missing is recognition of the problem and accepting that change needs to happen. Which is what Lyude pointed out
21:56 imirkin: `the problem` being that there's racism against that group?
23:07 skeggsb: i think perhaps it's best if these kinds of discussions are taken elsewhere when they come up, and leave this channel for discussion of driver-related topics.
23:08 skeggsb: respectful discussion of these issues is important, but this isn't the place for it
23:08 imirkin: 100% agreed.