00:00 imirkin: RSpliet: can you clarify what the problem with xorg was?
00:01 RSpliet: imirkin: random lock-ups. Couldn't even magic sysrq my way out of them
00:01 RSpliet: And oddly frequent, I don't remember them this frequent from the before-Wayland days
00:02 RSpliet: Also, that corruption in Firefox disappeared with WL, and I have smoother scrolling
00:02 RSpliet: even with webrender disabled
00:03 imirkin: ouch
00:03 imirkin: that's all a bit weird
00:04 RSpliet: I know... I presume that the video playback fix (forcing FF to use libva) works on Xorg just as well, but can double check. Some other time that is
00:05 imirkin: probably, yea
00:05 RSpliet: And mind you, that's with the 1.0.15 DDX that Fedora ships with. I couldn't judge whether the handful of changes between that and .17 would make a difference
00:05 imirkin: could be that firefox does something awkward which makes ddx be super-slow
00:05 imirkin: or was this without firefox?
00:05 imirkin: (that actually sounds slightly familiar...)
00:06 imirkin: like firefox without accel = heavy ddx use
00:06 imirkin: or something
00:06 RSpliet: No, firefox is my browser of choice (and sad as it may, my you tube of choice)
00:06 imirkin: sure, but sometimes no browser is running? :)
00:06 imirkin: or is that unimaginable
00:06 RSpliet: seldomly
00:07 RSpliet: Althemore since all those IM applications are now basically shipping an entire browser too. And I quite like my signal for desktop
00:07 RSpliet: But that's a whole different story
00:08 imirkin: lol
00:09 RSpliet: Anyway, I'm happy with using wayland, and my experience is pretty good. If you're curious and want more data from my GPU I can extract whatever. But it'll have to wait. I was going to say for the weekend, but sadly I have a paper to review. The paper and me are having a contest on which is the densest
00:09 imirkin: don't worry about it
00:09 imirkin: if you're not actively having a problem, i don't really care.
00:10 imirkin: i expect it'll be a close race :p
00:10 RSpliet: So far I'm winning \o/
00:10 imirkin: woohoo!
00:11 imirkin: you thought it was a paper, but it turned out to be a tree? :)
00:11 RSpliet: And sure, no active problems anymore, pretty happy with my set-up again actually, turned out better than I expected.
00:11 imirkin: (please tell me it's about graph theory...)
00:11 RSpliet: Hahaha sadly no. It's real time systems
00:11 RSpliet: Because apparently I'm an expert in that now, given how I too published a paper
00:12 imirkin: more expert than the jokers who *haven't* published a paper on the topic...
00:12 imirkin: few though they are
00:12 RSpliet: if you find yourself unable to sleep, and think depression might help, https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9372791
00:13 imirkin: Sim-D. very clever name. such creativity...
00:13 RSpliet: much pun
00:13 RSpliet: wow
00:13 imirkin: i bet it's just the 4th iteration though ... Sim-A, B, and C just didn't get published
00:13 RSpliet: Yeah, names for papers are supposed to be bad. That way they stick better
02:49 imirkin: pmoreau: btw, do you plan on looking at the rest of the nv50 compute MR?
05:53 tertl3: have you guys played with "Greenwithenvy"
05:55 tertl3: but I guess thats the stuff thats obvious from the vBIOS
05:55 tertl3: ive never had that kidn of control on my 1060 before
05:56 tertl3: but it requies the nvidia driver
05:56 tertl3: or at least it seems to
06:59 pmoreau: imirkin: I do, possibly today or tomorrow.
19:08 tertl3: did you guys see the nvidia keynote..the omniverse simulations are pretty sick
20:30 tavvva: Good morning, afternoon, evening, ...
20:34 tavvva: Guys, may I ask you for help with the Quadro NVS 140M troubleshooting
20:34 tavvva: ?
20:35 RSpliet: don't ask to ask, just ask
20:35 RSpliet: if someone replies, you're in luck and someone happened to have the expertise you needed
20:35 RSpliet: while at the same time being awake
20:35 tavvva: My friend refuses to use Linux due to HW problems he always encounters, because he has a bad luck when choosing HW
20:36 HdkR: (Don't choose Nvidia)
20:36 tavvva: yeah ... :D I know ... it's his laptop
20:36 imirkin: lots of people have had issues with the NVS 140M
20:36 imirkin: it's low on ram
20:36 imirkin: has video decode fused off
20:37 imirkin: and also is in that range where chips desoldered themselves over time
20:37 imirkin: so it's a winning combination :)
20:37 RSpliet: It does have a wopping 16 shader units though
20:37 tavvva: guys, I know Nvidia is a bad choice ... but this is the nouveau irc channel, right? :D
20:37 RSpliet: it is indeed. anyway
20:38 RSpliet: if you're looking for people to convince your friend, we're not those people. Nouveau is born out of spite, we don't like NVIDIA either :-P
20:39 tavvva: I'm a fan of reverse engineering in cases when the manufacturer is XXXX
20:39 RSpliet: So what's your actual problem?
20:39 HdkR: Sadly AMD laptops only recently got okay
20:39 RSpliet: HdkR: that's good news no?
20:40 HdkR: It is!
20:40 HdkR: sad it took this long :P
20:40 tavvva: anyways .... let me tell my story
20:40 RSpliet: Just in time for their CPUs to not suck
20:40 RSpliet:cries in AMD FX 6300
20:41 tavvva: My friend is frustrated from Linux because he always encounters HW problems ... I'm trying to convince him to stop using M$, but his arguments are always the same ..... IT DOESN'T WORK
20:42 tavvva: We both have the 'same' laptop at home and mine works and his doesn't .... I told him it's ok, but Lenovo created two versions of that laptop, one with Intel VGA and one with NVS 140M
20:43 tavvva: and of course he's bought the Nvidia version and I'm the one to be blamed for my hint
20:44 imirkin: tavvva: what's wrong with your friend using the software that works for them?
20:45 tavvva: so .... the nvidia binary driver somehow works, but it doesn't support hibernation and the backlight settings are kinda hardcoded in the driver and conflicts with the power manager ....
20:46 tavvva: when I switch to nouveau, the laptop get's frozen when drawing PDF images .... probably using textures for smoothing
20:46 RSpliet: what does frozen mean? what software is it actually running? Distro, kernel version, Xorg/Wayland?
20:47 tavvva: Linux Mint 20.1
20:47 tavvva: kernel 5.4.0-70-generic
20:48 tavvva: #78 Ubuntu SMP
20:48 RSpliet: Ok. That's old. First thing we'll tell you here is try a 5.11 kernel
20:49 tavvva: Wayland is automatically installed by Mint, but not used .... so ... XDG_SESSION_TYPE is x11
20:50 tavvva: well ... 5.11 doesn't seem to be in the repository and I'll have to build it first
20:50 RSpliet: Ok. Some users have better experience with X, some (me included) better with Wayland. Also on X we have two different "user-mode" drivers. There's ours (nouveau) and the generic one (modeset). They behave differently.
20:50 RSpliet: Right
20:50 RSpliet: Tell you what, if you got a spare USB disk, you can try booting a Fedora 34 beta live distro
20:51 RSpliet: I suspect it has 5.10 or 5.11, and Wayland out of the box. Just to experiment
20:51 tavvva: yeah, I could do that
20:52 RSpliet: I personally favour Fedora's new-software model over the Ubuntu/Debian philisophy, but the point really is to get new software running as quickly as possible. If you need support with old software, you get to talk to your distro makers, not with us :-P
20:52 RSpliet: I'm sure if that works we can get your Mint set-up or whatever working by upgrading software there
20:54 RSpliet: I actually have no idea where the F34 beta download link is. Never realised their website started to suck as of recent
20:54 tavvva: I'll find it, thx
20:55 tavvva: https://getfedora.org/workstation/download/
20:55 RSpliet: Yeah, that's not the F34 beta
20:55 RSpliet: Download that and you'll get a 5.6 kernel or sth like that
20:55 RSpliet: https://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/stage/34_Beta-1.3/Workstation/x86_64/iso/
20:55 RSpliet: There we go
20:57 tavvva: the link sent by me has two versions there .... 33 & 34 beta :]
20:57 RSpliet: Oh cluck me, I'm blind!
20:58 RSpliet: Got a new monitor yesterday, letters got so small all of the sudden
20:58 RSpliet: (and I can't stop boasting about it apparently)
20:58 tavvva: :D change the DPI :D
20:59 RSpliet: Nah it's good. It's this thing that people do where they blame external factors for their failures to feel better
20:59 tavvva: oh ok ... I'm not fat, my bed is constantly shrinking
21:00 RSpliet: An excellent example indeed
21:08 tavvva: please gimme some time to write the flash and do the test, hopefully I'll be back in 15-30 minutes
21:09 RSpliet: Sure, no worries
21:12 pmoreau: imirkin: I’m now done with the MR.
21:14 imirkin: pmoreau: thanks
21:14 imirkin: did it make sense?
21:14 pmoreau: Yes
21:14 imirkin: the image stuff is a bit hairy
21:15 imirkin: but i don't see a clever way around that
21:15 imirkin: with all the format/etc conversions
21:15 pmoreau: It is indeed :-D but I have no better solutions to suggest.
21:16 imirkin: esp the 3d tiling thing is ... slightly annoying
21:16 imirkin: that logic was not my *first* guess at it :)
21:18 pmoreau: But maybe it was still within the first hundred? :-)
21:18 imirkin: after some random coding, i flipped over to using python to model it
21:28 tavvva: The F34 installer started with borked screen :/
21:28 RSpliet: And it's just downhill from there on?
21:30 tavvva: it somehow works .... just the background contains some binary garbage
21:30 Lyude: jfyi - if you need to get through the installer without graphics, inst.vnc should work
21:30 RSpliet: Lyude: no, the point is to figure out whether Nouveau with new kernel/drivers works better than whatever Ubuntu/Mint 20.1 ships with
21:30 Lyude: ahh
21:30 RSpliet: The answer seems to be "nope, worse"
21:31 RSpliet: And it's a G86, so I don't think we can blame bit-rot for that one like we could for NV34 or sth
21:31 tavvva: I will try to install it to the harddrive so that I could get more freedom with the troubleshooting there
21:32 tavvva: not sure how long it could take .... probably 30 minutes?
21:32 RSpliet: tavva: Do you happen to know what kernel it comes with? I'm guessing 5.11, but not sure when they rolled this beta
21:32 tavvva: lemme look
21:32 tavvva: 5.11.3-300
21:32 tavvva: you were right
21:32 RSpliet: Yeah, that should all work alright.
21:33 RSpliet: And the fact that it doesn't is worth investigating from here on :-)
21:33 tavvva: the question is whether the background problem is caused by nouveau or something else
21:34 RSpliet: what do you call a background problem?
21:34 RSpliet: Can you describe the issue a bit more precisely?
21:34 pmoreau: imirkin: I spinned off the clover patches I had into an MR, and once that’s merged I’ll split the remaining patches into 2 MRs with the first one being more general, and the second one containing the missing bits for passing the basic test from the CTS and probably enabling compute.
21:34 tavvva: the background looks like shifted
21:34 RSpliet: Can you share a screenshot?
21:34 imirkin: pmoreau: awesome, sounds good
21:34 imirkin: pmoreau: i'll go through your review tonight
21:34 tavvva: by 200px to the right and 300px down
21:35 RSpliet: Fedora (/Gnome) is notorious for having an eyesore of a background image every other release (... in my humble opinion :-D), so it may well be by design
21:35 tavvva: and the stuff above the background is filled with garbage
21:35 RSpliet: That doesn't sound right
21:35 RSpliet: Screenshot would be good.
21:36 tavvva: lemme share
21:37 pmoreau: imirkin: Cool! It should not take too long. :-) If you would like to try out running some OpenCL eventually, feel free to ask.
21:38 imirkin: pmoreau: i've already got a CL setup going, just need moar patches
21:38 RSpliet: tavva: could you also share a copy of dmesg just in case? I suspect you can just pipe the output into fpaste and share the URL
21:38 pmoreau: imirkin: :-D What missing parts are you after, image support?
21:40 imirkin: pmoreau: presumably your various changes
21:40 imirkin: i just enabled CL :)
21:41 RSpliet: Lyude: glad to see your cursor work-around made it into 5.12 by the way :-)
21:41 Lyude: RSpliet: glad to hear it did!
21:41 tavvva: http://tavvva.net/files/linux/nv.jpg
21:42 RSpliet: tavva: ouch, that's a very poorly designed background indeed :-P
21:42 pmoreau: imirkin: My nv50_compute_support branch is based on your nv50_compute. Once you get that (and you also need a libclc that supports SPIR-V; LLVM 12 finally ships with one IIRC, otherwise you will need one from Git (though thankfully you do not need to build everything)), set `NOUVEAU_ENABLE_CL=1 NV50_PROG_USE_NIR=1` and you should be good to start playing with it.
21:43 imirkin: yep, i have all that, except your branch :)
21:44 tavvva: RSpliet: the logo in the corner looks correctly positioned .... maybe it isn't a part of the background
21:44 RSpliet: tavva: that's such an odd one. Looks like it allocated a buffer for the background and just started uploading at a random location
21:45 pmoreau: It’s free and available: no need to hesitate before grabbing your own copy of it! ;-D
21:45 RSpliet: tavva: correct, it's overlaid by a gnome shell plugin
21:45 tavvva: RSpliet: I'm starting the installer and let's see how it looks from the installed system
21:45 RSpliet: Also the installer window over it is rendered correctly, so it's just the background buffer being poorly initialised. Could even just be a gnome bug, although I'd suspect the uploader before mutter
21:46 RSpliet: tavvva: did you sneak in an extra v into your nickname?
21:46 RSpliet: Also: make sure to update the system after install. Newer is better
21:46 tavvva: RSpliet: there are 3 Vs in my nick
21:47 tavvva: yup, gonna do
21:47 RSpliet: Hope it's not a big pain. With SSDs these installations just fly through, but on a 2008 laptop...
21:48 RSpliet: That being said, glad it's just the background image. I mean, it's fugly, but if you can scroll through your PDFs smoothly and all that, we can work on it
21:49 RSpliet: The amount of use-cases for a background image are limited anyway
21:51 tavvva: nope, it isn't a problem ....
21:51 tavvva: the SSD is quite fast
21:54 RSpliet: skeggsb: take a peek at tavvva's screenshot. NVIDIA NVS 140M, Fedora 34 beta live. I don't even know which components are involved in bugs like this anymore... mutter and mesa?
22:01 skeggsb: RSpliet: yeah, i'm aware of it, updated my main system to gnome 40 a few days back and see something similar
22:01 skeggsb: X is fine, wl is not
22:04 RSpliet: Oh great
22:04 tavvva: the installed system has booted ... the background problem is still kinda there
22:05 tavvva: there's no garbage anymore, but the background is shifted to the right
22:05 RSpliet: skeggsb: reckon it's mutter?
22:07 RSpliet: tavvvva: the garbage is uninitialised memory. After a reboot a lot of uninitialised memory is sort-of-initialised by the previous boot. With a bit of luck you might even see some renders from the previous boot, if not weirdly stretched!
22:08 tavvva: gnome shell crashed after the login :/
22:08 RSpliet: Apparently X.org is better in this case. Not sure if it's installed by default (I suspect it is, xwayland is a thing), but the easiest way to switch is log out, on the login screen select your username, and before entering your password click the sprocket in the bottom right corner to select Gnome (Xorg) or sth along those lines
22:09 karolherbst: skeggsb: this high CPU usage issue?
22:09 RSpliet: karolherbst: no. This is the "gnome 40 doesn't know how to upload a background to a buffer" issue. See tavvvva's screenshot
22:09 karolherbst: ahh
22:11 tavvva: it seems gnome shell crashes with each login
22:11 tavvva: gonna install xfce
22:11 RSpliet: tavvvva: that's a bigger issue.
22:12 RSpliet: Your choice of Mint made me suspect you weren't in it for Gnome Shell anyway, so the background issue and the shell crashing issue don't necessarily have to be chased up
22:13 RSpliet: Love it if we could, but priorities :-D
22:13 RSpliet: Also, your friend is not wrong when saying Linux just doesn't work a bit too often
22:14 RSpliet: The fallacy is that Windows also often doesn't work. MS just gets away with it more
22:14 tavvva: I could report it
22:15 RSpliet: tavvva: the broken background is already on skeggsb's radar. Not that we have any hierarchy here, but consider him the lead developer :-P
22:15 RSpliet: So I don't think there's much you can add that he doesn't already know, other than "it happens on G86" - hereby!
22:18 tavvva: G86M :]
22:18 tavvva: at least that's what lspci says
22:19 RSpliet: You're absolutely right, but for us the distinction doesn't really matter
22:19 skeggsb: RSpliet: nfi what it is, i haven't had a chance to look into it yet
22:19 tavvva: [10de:0429] (rev a1)
22:19 RSpliet: tavvva: anything suspicious in your dmesg?
22:19 RSpliet: Would be good if you can post that
22:20 tavvva: yeah .... trapped read
22:20 skeggsb: hm, i get nothing here
22:20 RSpliet: copy-pasting into IRC doesn't work, but Fedora has fpaste, so just giving it
22:20 RSpliet: dmesg | fpaste
22:20 skeggsb: (in dmesg)
22:20 RSpliet: and sharing the URL
22:20 RSpliet: would be good
22:20 RSpliet: (you may have to dnf install fpaste, not sure if it's standard)
22:21 karolherbst: skeggsb: if I had to guess, it's a mesa flushing bug
22:21 karolherbst: or mutter
22:21 tavvva: https://paste.centos.org/view/18fec4b8
22:21 RSpliet: skeggsb: my guess is that the trapped read is from fb initialisation code or something along those lines. Suspect they're harmless
22:21 skeggsb: karolherbst: yeah, that'd be the first area i'd look to
22:21 karolherbst: ahh
22:21 karolherbst: gr traps...
22:21 RSpliet: Oh no
22:21 karolherbst: ENOMEM?
22:21 tavvva: the background image process crashed and now I see just blue
22:21 karolherbst: ahh no
22:21 karolherbst: M2MF
22:22 karolherbst: I can take a look tomorrow
22:22 karolherbst: sounds like nv50?
22:22 skeggsb: oh yeah, you're seeing something else (or just a worse presentation of the issue)
22:22 skeggsb: my dmesg is clean, but rendering is a bit messy under wl
22:22 tavvva: wanna have access to the laptop
22:22 tavvva: ?
22:22 karolherbst: tavvva: probably not needed
22:23 karolherbst: I will try to reproduce tomorrow on my machine
22:23 RSpliet: [    3.968471] nouveau 0000:01:00.0: fb: 128 MiB GDDR3
22:23 karolherbst: skeggsb: btw, did you saw the high CPU usage problem?
22:23 karolherbst: that's more an issue for you
22:23 skeggsb: karolherbst: the gitlab issue re: fw / updated kernel?
22:23 imirkin: RSpliet: didn't i say that?
22:23 RSpliet: imirkin: you did!
22:24 karolherbst: skeggsb: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/issues/4630
22:24 RSpliet: [  519.861214] nouveau 0000:01:00.0: systemd-logind[622]: validate: -12 -> -12 is -ENOMEM :-D
22:24 imirkin: lots of people have had issues with those NVS 140M's
22:24 imirkin: yea
22:24 RSpliet: imirkin: tbf, this log is pretty wild
22:25 RSpliet: Even before that ENOMEM, there's a [   42.261184] nouveau 0000:01:00.0: gr: TRAP_M2MF 00000002 [IN]
22:25 karolherbst: skeggsb: ehh.. I moved it to https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/nouveau/-/issues/88
22:25 karolherbst: more comments there
22:26 RSpliet: heh. I never even noticed my dmesg isn't clean!
22:26 RSpliet: error handling got a lot better
22:26 tavvva: btw. I'm a former Fedora devel ....
22:26 RSpliet: got two FB_FLUSH_TIMEOUTS and a random DRM: Failure to read SCDC_TMDS_CONFIG: -6
22:27 karolherbst: RSpliet: you are also using a 4k display
22:27 RSpliet: tavvva: skeggsb, karolherbst and lyude are all Red Hat
22:27 RSpliet: karolherbst: *puts on sunglasses* hell yeah!
22:27 karolherbst: RSpliet: I also have issues wiht 4k on my turing GPU
22:27 tavvva: yeah, I understood from the fedora preferrence
22:27 karolherbst: it's... alla bit highly untested
22:27 karolherbst: *all a
22:28 skeggsb: karolherbst: we can fix the busy waiting in kms (though it's non-trivial, the hw doesn't quite behave the way you want/expect when it comes to using interrupts for flip completion)
22:28 RSpliet: tavvva: haha, well, that's coincidental. I've been running it since core 2, never worked for them... but it just happens to be a distro with a really new live iso
22:28 skeggsb: but there's other stuff going on there too
22:28 karolherbst: skeggsb: well.. right, but bruning through the CPU like that is quite annoying for users :p
22:28 RSpliet: skeggsb: fwiw, just increasing the usleep didn't make much of a difference on my machine
22:28 karolherbst: but yeah.. I guess you might have some ideas here
22:29 karolherbst: RSpliet: ohh, right..
22:29 karolherbst: try bigger values..
22:29 karolherbst: it's usleep
22:29 karolherbst: not msleep
22:29 karolherbst: so 100, 100000?
22:29 karolherbst: 100ms might be too much
22:29 karolherbst: maybe 10000 then
22:30 imirkin: RSpliet: the SCDC_TMDS_CONFIG thing is for HDMI 2.0 ...
22:30 imirkin: that should only be for gm200+
22:31 karolherbst: imirkin: it is a 4k@60 display in case that matters
22:31 RSpliet: imirkin: ok... so is mutter just being opportunist?
22:31 RSpliet: karolherbst: it's running at 30Hz
22:31 imirkin: karolherbst: oh. this is a new issue?
22:31 imirkin: RSpliet: no, we always set it when supported
22:31 karolherbst: RSpliet: sure, but nouveau might try something stupid
22:31 imirkin: we might enable or disable it
22:31 imirkin: but we'll still do the i2c write
22:31 imirkin: (or read)
22:32 imirkin: coz the monitor has to be on the same page
22:32 karolherbst: imirkin: dunno if it's new
22:32 imirkin: if it's configured for scrambling / tmds clock division
22:32 imirkin: then that setting needs to be changed to match what the gpu is doing
22:33 RSpliet: imirkin: right. But this is GK107. So it shouldn't be supported on the GPU end
22:33 imirkin: RSpliet: yeah, there should be no SCDC stuff going on there
22:33 imirkin: otoh, maybe the code still does it to turn it off
22:33 imirkin: dunno
22:33 karolherbst: yeah.. I'd expect something like that as well
22:34 imirkin: (SCDC isn't a thing to turn on/off, but it's like EDID - another i2c address which accesses that stuff)
22:34 RSpliet: my display doesn't look scrambled, although that would've been the perfect excuse for struggling with counting the v's in tavvvvvvvva's nickname
22:34 RSpliet: Ok
22:34 imirkin: scrambling = signal-level thing
22:34 imirkin: it's necessary for the higher rates + clock division
22:34 tavvva: btw. guys, how does it look in RH after joining with IBM?
22:35 imirkin: although allegedly some displays support it without the clock division for low-bandwidth modes
22:36 karolherbst: pmoreau: btw, whenever we have a day of learning at RH I usually spend it on learning rust by working on rusticl :D
22:36 Lyude: tavvva: basically the same, sometimes ibm funds new projects
22:37 Lyude: my job has changed exactly 0% since the acquisition, despite being extremely afraid beforehand that it would be bad
22:37 RSpliet: imirkin: I'd have to read up on what it actually does, but I'm guessing something that breaks regularity in the signal that could cause the clocks to desynchronise/skew. Probablistically improving signal integrity kind of thing?
22:37 ccr: "dun-dun-duuuuuun"
22:37 karolherbst: Lyude: well mine changed, but not because of IBM :D
22:37 Lyude: (and to be fair - ibm does fucking suck, but it seems like they realize that and also realize we kind of know what we're doing and not to poke us)
22:38 Lyude: karolherbst: heh
22:38 karolherbst: anyway.. there were huge change of plans after the aquisition anyway
22:38 karolherbst: so..
22:38 karolherbst: things usually ended up better than expected
22:38 karolherbst: not sure how much of that is still under NDA though
22:38 tavvva: Lyude: thx
22:39 RSpliet: RE IBM sucks, eh... they still do some cool stuff with OpenPower
22:39 Lyude: yeah, bad organizations can do cool things sometimes
22:39 karolherbst: RSpliet: probably the only part which doesn't
22:39 RSpliet: It's just a big 'ol rudderless multinational with a bastardly history
22:39 karolherbst: they do blockchain stuff, that's normally a no go for me
22:40 karolherbst: if you do blockchain? you are evil, period
22:40 Lyude: RSpliet: yeah ibm has a fucking awful history (that they still don't owe up to, sigh)
22:40 karolherbst: ah yeah, and the historic stuff
22:40 Lyude: karolherbst: 100% agreed on the blockchain stuff
22:40 karolherbst: I was actually asked how jews can live with themselves still working for RH or working for IBM
22:41 Lyude: that's uh, sure a bizarre question
22:41 tavvva: each corporate sucks :]
22:41 karolherbst: interesting question, I don't know the answer to that
22:41 karolherbst: Lyude: why bizarre?
22:41 karolherbst: IBM helped the nazis
22:41 Lyude: karolherbst: oh no I'm well aware, it's just kind of in the same vein as like
22:41 karolherbst: ahh
22:41 imirkin: karolherbst: most people don't know that
22:41 tavvva: the management hierarchy grows indefinitely\
22:41 imirkin: karolherbst: also it was a while ago
22:41 karolherbst: sure
22:42 karolherbst: sure
22:42 karolherbst: still an interesting question to ask
22:42 Lyude: how do you work for company that doesn't like gay when you are gay? it's kind of like well, that's just how living capitalism is sometimes :S
22:42 imirkin: karolherbst: same could be said of almost any long-lived corporation, i think
22:42 karolherbst: Lyude: yeah sure.. but if you are in IT you can just work for a different company usually
22:42 Lyude: karolherbst: true true
22:42 RSpliet: Looking at 2021 ethics, I'd take IBM over this ehm... that big retailer gone cloudy we frequently hear complains about.
22:42 karolherbst: imirkin: yeah, true
22:43 karolherbst: I am not comdeming anyone here, just wondering what people think about it
22:43 Lyude: oh yeah i didn't think you were :P
22:46 tavvva: before I left RH there were protests because of moving from Zimbra to Google
22:46 tavvva: not sure how it ended up
22:46 karolherbst: yeah well..
22:46 karolherbst: zimbra is just terrible
22:47 Lyude: hey, i liked it more then gmail :(
22:47 Lyude: tavvva: they are doing the final zimbra switch soon and people are still complaining lol
22:47 tavvva: I also liked Zimbra :]
22:47 Lyude: 99% of the reason I liked it is because gmail imap is hilariously slow
22:47 karolherbst: well, I meant the web ui specifically
22:47 Lyude: oh yeah web ui was terrible
22:47 karolherbst: and client side filtering sucks
22:48 tavvva: OMG ... don't tell me the switch took more than 5 years :D :D :D
22:48 Lyude: tavvva: it was more like, 2 maybe?
22:48 RSpliet: you guys are lucky
22:48 RSpliet: My company gave me a Windows laptop for work, and mandates its use
22:48 karolherbst: but yeah, the imap stuff is really painful in gmail
22:48 karolherbst: RSpliet: ufff
22:48 karolherbst: well.. RH can't really do that.. :D
22:48 karolherbst: I hope
22:49 RSpliet: They have no reason to
22:49 RSpliet: But then, I don't work on open source software currently
22:49 tavvva: my new company gave me a Windows laptop, but allowed me to switch to Linux
22:49 tavvva: it was my condition during the interview
22:50 RSpliet: There's a slim chance I may have to do things with DirectX at some point, so from that perspective I guess I get it sort-of
22:50 Lyude: i love hearing when people require stuff like that from their employers
22:50 Lyude: RSpliet: also ouch
22:50 Lyude: who do you work for?
22:50 RSpliet: Imagination Tech
22:50 tavvva: RSpliet: any chance you could use KVM to encapsulate the POSH ?
22:50 Lyude: o-O
22:51 Lyude: that is not a company I expected to have a unreasonable expectation like that
22:51 tavvva: RSpliet: I have 3 screens in the office ... 1 with xfce desktop and 2 with kvm-spice displaying windows 10 POSH
22:51 RSpliet: Lyude: they design GPUs. Don't think they have Windows-oriented customers, but they have had their GPU paired with an Intel Atom x86 SoC in the past
22:52 RSpliet: So DirectX, well, used to matter
22:52 Lyude: also - I should probably note that a big reason I gunned it for Red Hat when I was trying to find my first software gig was because I was dead-set on not getting a job where I had to deal with windows. pretty glad I did that :V
22:52 HdkR: They also have dGPUs coming up, which I presume will want a D3D driver :)
22:52 Lyude: imagination?
22:52 HdkR: yep
22:52 Lyude: woah, that is unexpected
22:53 RSpliet: Lyude: https://www.imaginationtech.com/news/press-release/innosilicon-selects-imaginations-new-bxt-multi-core-gpu-ip-for-cloud-computing/
22:53 Lyude: neat
22:53 Lyude: now put it in my desktop
22:54 RSpliet: really? I was complaining earlier how, as far as open source drivers goes, imgtec is the only company in a worse position than NVIDIA :-P
22:54 Lyude: RSpliet: I thought they were investing money in fixing that though? or did they just decide not to
22:55 Lyude: (if they're going to try pushing blobs for cloud gpu stuff that'd be kind of funny)
22:55 RSpliet: Lyude: it's hard to staff OSS driver devs from what I can tell.
22:55 RSpliet: Like, not as if nouveau has tons of those :-P
22:55 Lyude: RSpliet: because red hat is extremely cheap yes
22:55 RSpliet: I think there's been intention, but up to now insufficient momentum
22:55 RSpliet: Oh, yeah I remember that
22:55 tavvva: Lyude: unless you meet an asshole in the management, you can be happy in RH
22:56 tavvva: Lyude: but otherwise .... it can really be a nightmare ....
22:56 RSpliet: Anyway, I considered joining the ImgTec OSS driver team when I was applying
22:57 RSpliet: But decided I didn't want to leave behind research
22:57 Lyude: tavvva: oh yeah i've met shitty management, but my management is fine. i will definitely stick by saying that red hat is extremely, extremely cheap though :s
22:58 imirkin: Lyude: like in what way?
22:58 tavvva: I'd love to know as well
22:59 RSpliet: imirkin: I offered to work for them for a few months, MSc fresh in the pocket and prior nouveau experience, they seemed interested. They came back with an offer for a position in Brno and like a three-digit monthly salary
22:59 Lyude: imirkin: "we want to do X thing related to desktop, it's important!". "ok-will you invest resources in it, or hire someone, or..." "no." "so who's going to do it?" *no response*
22:59 tavvva: for me it was an expensive experience ... pretty expensive ... I almost died
22:59 Lyude: basically like, nearly every single thing related to desktop goes like that
23:00 imirkin: Lyude: ah, that's not cheap, that's just wanting to do more than resources allow for
23:00 imirkin: that's like every company
23:00 Lyude: doesn't make it good :)
23:00 RSpliet: imirkin: let me repeat myself: they offered a three-digit monthly salary
23:00 imirkin: RSpliet: currency matters slightly
23:00 RSpliet: Euro
23:01 imirkin: RSpliet: like ... 3-digit bars of gold per month?
23:01 ccr: if it was in Bitcoin .. :P
23:01 imirkin: that'd be pretty good
23:01 imirkin: most of it delivered in bars, and the remainder in trucks to carry the bars ;)
23:02 imirkin: yeah, 1k euro/mo is ... low.
23:02 imirkin: even if the cost of living is literally 0, that's still very low.
23:02 ccr: I'd say it also depends on hours, tho
23:02 tavvva: 1k is 4 digits
23:02 karolherbst: RSpliet: uhh
23:02 imirkin: presumably this was full time
23:02 karolherbst: you can earn 4 digit in brno :D
23:02 imirkin: tavvva: i'm assuming he meant 999 Euro
23:02 RSpliet: yeah it was full time, and under the guise of an internship.
23:02 imirkin: and i was just rounding up to 1k
23:02 karolherbst: RSpliet: crappy pay is crappy pay
23:03 RSpliet: imirkin: I believe it was less, but I can't recall the exact number
23:03 imirkin: RSpliet: doesn't really matter
23:03 Lyude: european digits or american digits
23:03 Lyude: (/joke)
23:03 ccr: I learned from Simpsons that americans have 4 fingers!
23:03 imirkin: Lyude: i don't get it
23:03 Lyude: imirkin: it just popped in my head because you guys were talking about different currencies
23:04 RSpliet: Lyude: get out of my face with those imperial digits :-P
23:04 imirkin: right ....
23:04 Lyude: RSpliet: also yeah - it's because it's been next to impossible for us to get reqs for years
23:04 RSpliet: reqs?
23:05 imirkin: RSpliet: that's big-company speak for "people"
23:05 imirkin: i truly hate that term
23:05 RSpliet: I prefer to be referred to as FTE
23:05 RSpliet: the ffft-sound spits nice and aggressively
23:05 Lyude: and as of a few months ago it became even more difficult because why hire people for more work when you can just give them more work and not hire anyone new to see how long it takes until something breaks :)
23:06 Lyude:groans
23:06 ccr: :/
23:06 Lyude: but that's me being very critical
23:06 karolherbst: Lyude: well, at least they only plan for 75% this quarter...
23:06 karolherbst: :p
23:06 Lyude: overall I do like working here to be clear
23:06 karolherbst: yeah, it's nice
23:06 karolherbst: I am just not sure if it's the company or kevin :D
23:07 karolherbst: (well I am quite sure)
23:07 Lyude: but like-I learned 2 or 3 years ago never to wed yourself to an employer :P
23:07 imirkin: Lyude: btw, news-flash: it's hard to hire good software engineers, period.
23:07 RSpliet: Lyude: nouveau would be in so much better shape if the team was bigger. The chunks are just too big to bite off on your own.
23:07 RSpliet: you should swoop up pmoreau once he finishes his PhD :-P
23:07 karolherbst: :D
23:07 Lyude: imirkin: oh i know. but it helps if you actually try hiring someone first :)
23:08 Lyude: it's especially difficult in the area we work in
23:08 RSpliet: Yeah, driver devs are in demand
23:08 karolherbst: RSpliet: I am sure that pmoreau doesn't want to go to brno
23:08 RSpliet: You'd expect that works in your favour in salary negotiations
23:08 karolherbst: RSpliet: well.....
23:08 karolherbst: at least it helped me getting my relocation
23:09 RSpliet: I'm sure brno is a nice place. Probably too sleepy for my taste
23:09 karolherbst: depends
23:09 karolherbst: if you look european it's fine
23:09 RSpliet: But I have a friend there @ RH who's been a GCC verification engineer or something like that for quite a while
23:09 tavvva: RSpliet: Brno is nice
23:09 RSpliet: Seems to like it there from the sound of it
23:09 HdkR: Everyone needs a compiler dev or twenty :)
23:10 karolherbst: or 1000 if you are intel
23:11 karolherbst: 900 of them working on autovec probably
23:11 HdkR: Sounds about right
23:12 RSpliet: the only way to sell AVX512
23:12 karolherbst: uhh...
23:13 karolherbst: you now, because bruning 100W with a 45W TDP CPU isn't enough
23:13 karolherbst: you need AVX512 to burn even more
23:13 tavvva: RSpliet: I live in Brno since my university studies (1999) and it's just the right size
23:13 karolherbst: and then tell in benchmarks how fast your frigging CPU is :p
23:14 RSpliet: tavvva: I'm in London currently. It feels a bit like a village at times. Perspective :-P
23:14 karolherbst: tavvva: yeah.. well.. depends on who you are, I know people being less happy there, beacuse people can be assholes
23:14 karolherbst: (and racist)
23:14 tavvva: RSpliet: as the time goes by you can become a bit bored here, but ... you can always travel
23:15 karolherbst: yeah.. I mean.. brno is a fine city compared to a lot of other huge places
23:15 karolherbst: it's not great either though
23:15 karolherbst: and brno isn't that big anyway
23:15 karolherbst: and there are indeed a couple of nice places and people
23:15 RSpliet: tavvvva: yeah, definitely going to rub my burgundy EU passport in those British noses after the pandemic
23:16 tavvva: karolherbst: yeah ... people are assholes because of the bad political culture currently set up
23:16 karolherbst: yeah
23:16 tavvva: it affects the whole country
23:16 karolherbst: and no
23:16 karolherbst: it was like that before :D
23:16 tavvva: we had a communism till 1989 here
23:16 karolherbst: people are just more open about it on the internet
23:16 karolherbst: that;s the difference to before
23:16 tavvva: and since that people are trying to learn how to deal with democracy
23:17 karolherbst: tavvva: yeah sure, but that's not really what I meant specifically
23:17 karolherbst: let's face it, brno is fine if you are white
23:17 karolherbst: if not.. you have to deal with a lot of racism
23:17 tavvva: and right now we're fighting with oligarch Andrej Babis
23:17 karolherbst: no matter what political party is in power
23:18 tavvva: and his team that manipulates the majority of people in the country ...
23:18 RSpliet: tavvva: meanwhile the US and UK are forgetting how that democracy thing works. It's a bit of a shitshow all round :-P
23:18 karolherbst: tavvva: you make it sound like the people didn't vote for them
23:19 tavvva: karolherbst: well ... I cannot confirm there's a problem with racism
23:19 karolherbst: tavvva: yeah, I know brazilians who confirmed it to me
23:19 karolherbst: so
23:19 karolherbst: I mean, know them personally
23:20 karolherbst: it's not _as_bad_ in brno
23:20 karolherbst: but once you get to the rural places it's a fucking racist place
23:20 tavvva: karolherbst: some people have problems with gipsies, but that's a completely different story
23:20 karolherbst: tavvva: no it isn't
23:20 RSpliet: that's true for quite a lot of countries you'll find.
23:20 skeggsb: karolherbst: isn't that's pretty standard everywhere?
23:20 karolherbst: skeggsb: nope
23:20 karolherbst: it's not as bad
23:20 Lyude: tavvva: jfyi that's a racial slur actually
23:21 skeggsb: rural areas don't tend to be that progressive in general
23:21 karolherbst: east euope is really racist compared to other countries
23:21 Lyude: it's roma
23:21 karolherbst: because you have like <1% pocs living there
23:21 karolherbst: Lyude: +1
23:21 karolherbst: yeah, call them roma or I call you racist
23:21 tavvva: right now a political party SPD makes enemies from arabian people
23:22 karolherbst: saying "it's a different story" makes you being part of the problem
23:22 karolherbst: skeggsb: ohh, right
23:22 karolherbst: yeah that part is true
23:22 tavvva: it's completely against any migration from areas where islamic religion is common
23:22 karolherbst: I just meant, that east europe really has a huge issue with racism compared to most other countries
23:23 RSpliet: a "slur" in English isn't necessarily a slur in another language, let's not try and inflame such discussions. I don't think tavvva had bad intentions with his observation
23:23 RSpliet: and thanks for pointing out it's more sensitive in English
23:23 karolherbst: tavvva: yeah, but with those topics you reach a lot of voters
23:24 karolherbst: RSpliet: in this case it is though
23:24 karolherbst: period
23:24 RSpliet: Thanks for contributing to the "let's not inflame" part
23:25 tavvva: karolherbst: of course .... SPD is a huge populistic pile of XXXXX
23:25 Lyude: RSpliet: i really was just saying it was a slur
23:25 karolherbst: RSpliet: just saying how it is
23:25 Lyude: that's it. i don't judge intention on that stuff
23:26 tavvva: the ABRT report takes ages ...
23:28 karolherbst: tavvva: I like the fact that their leader is actually a forgeiner as well
23:29 karolherbst: but apaprently that's fine...
23:29 karolherbst: oh well...
23:29 karolherbst: some people are dumb anyway :/
23:30 tavvva: google translator translates the czech word "romové" as "gypsies"
23:30 karolherbst: well... the translator isn't free of racism either
23:30 karolherbst: it translate to most often used words
23:31 tavvva: I didn't know the second option
23:31 karolherbst: well
23:31 karolherbst: that's the offically correct term "Roma"
23:31 tavvva: I know the band Gipsy Kings
23:32 karolherbst: and "romové" == "Roma", so
23:32 tavvva: why did they choose the name then?
23:32 karolherbst: yeah well
23:32 karolherbst: some like to use those slurs
23:32 RSpliet: tavvva: I'm under the impresison that the negative connotation around the term is a more recent thing
23:33 karolherbst: yeah.. it also depends on how those terms are used
23:33 tavvva: in our country the Roma people called themselves "cikáni" during the communism
23:33 karolherbst: and those usually get used in negative meanings a lot
23:33 tavvva: and noone had problems with that
23:33 karolherbst: where in more neutral occasions you use "roma"
23:33 imirkin: tavvva: which country?
23:33 tavvva: later they started calling themselves romové and started taking the former as an offense
23:33 karolherbst: tavvva: meanings change
23:34 tavvva: Czechia
23:34 imirkin: ah ok
23:34 karolherbst: you can read up on a lot of that for several terms in relation to poc
23:34 karolherbst: some words were quite neutral in the past
23:34 karolherbst: some got missused and new phrases appear
23:34 imirkin: yeah, in russia the only name i knew for them was sort-of equivalent to the cikani thing (tsygani is the closest transliteration for the russian word)
23:34 imirkin: no clue what it is now, if any change
23:34 karolherbst: some are still fine with the old phrases
23:35 karolherbst: others are not
23:35 karolherbst: it's always a difficult topic, but usually going with the most neutral term is prefered
23:36 karolherbst: imirkin: probably still the same
23:36 imirkin: they weren't incredibly common, at least around my area. compared to, say, romania.
23:37 karolherbst: well, it's also a french/german word originally :p
23:37 karolherbst: ehh
23:37 karolherbst: actually only french
23:37 tavvva: https://retrace.fedoraproject.org/faf/reports/82617/
23:38 tavvva: apparently quite common
23:38 karolherbst: anyway, it's a slightly different word
23:38 karolherbst: and less negatively conotated
23:39 RSpliet: tavvva: All of them Fedora 34? Sounds like this is one for the Gnome team
23:51 tavvva: xfce crashes too :/
23:51 tavvva: however the background is ok in xfce